for the alaunt guys

[Meerihunter 7]

Some of the wolves I saw footage of with pairs Taigans working where very tall, and of large GSD kind of build about them.

[gaz 284]

Big old lumps they wolves right enough,id say they would take a bit of killing for any breed of dog...even if they could come to terms with them from a slip at any kind of distance...but what about a decent brace or more of sound working deerhounds that are of the type of the original stuff bred to cover some right harsh ground in the expance of the highlands of Scotland that were originally bred to hold or pull down big red stags and dare i say it,prob used to kill the wolves that once upon a time roamed up there,as the deerhound is old breed that must of seen the sharp end of wolves when they were about there in these harsh places.

 

I know these types of deerhounds are a bit of rarity these days but they do still exist and see a fair bit of work but these days are not truly used to their strengths killing a fox like a terrier would do shaking a rat...very very easy for these powerfull hounds with the tools to cover the ground to maybe come to terms with a wolf aswell.....maybe not but just another breed to chuck into the mix of a possible breed with the tools to maybe stop a wolf ??

 

Would be good to hear the opinions from lads with far more knowledge of the working pure deerhounds than myself.

[UphillDoc 278]

There seems to be bit of confusion amongst some of the posters, so I will try to clear it up for those that have never hunted coyotes or wolves with dogs.

I have stated before I consider MYSELF a Bulldog man first and foremost, and my favorite dog was a 1/2 cross bullstag. She was not however the prototype for the perfect coyote dog, IMO, and I would have probably missed 3/4 of the coyotes we caught this year (over 100) if I would have had to depend only on a set (3 dogs) of dogs just like her.

 

First, having dogs capable of KILLING coyotes is NOT the hardest part of making a "coyote dog"! Any bullcross that cant/wont kill a coyote single handed is a cull, IMO. What folks are forgetting is the dog has to have the ability to FIRST run down the coyote, and thats not an easy task even for many long dogs. The good stags are the masters of the quick kill. They can run up to a coyote, throw it, and come up with the throat almost every time, and make it look easy. Generations of selecting dogs with the uncanny knack has produced a set "type" of dog (head dog).

 

Second, because a dog has the SPEED to catch a coyote does NOT mean it will make a "coyote dog" Folks here go thru literally 1000s of track dogs looking for the 1 that has the will to fight, and can stay sound. Most times the track dogs are bred to a stag in the hopes of getting that extra gear, but then bred away from in future breedings. As a rule, the rougher the ground you hunt, the less "hotblood" you will have in your dogs. The terrain folks hunt coyotes in can range from flat crop fields to hilly, rocky, cactus filled desert.

 

Third, Some folks are happy having a set of mixed specialists. Ie..a "catch dog" (extra fast dog, that may or may not help in the fight) A "head dog" and either a "pack dog" (fair at all aspects but not great at any) or another "head" or "chest dog" (helps at the kill as long as another dog has head pinned) While others prefer to try to have a set that any of the dogs can/will do any of the tasks, and can/will do it solo when the occasion presents itself, and those are the only kind that should be called "coyote dogs" IMO.

This is simply a matter of preferance, as is the STYLE in which they are caught. The example "Merrihunter" gave about the "smart" Tazi/Taigan style would get dogs culled at MY house, but doesnt mean they would catch any less game. I have good friends that catch as many coyotes as I do and they prefer faster, and "smarter" dogs than I do. Their emphasis is on how fast they can catch/stop the coyote and then they quickly intervene for the dogs and finish the coyote themselves. My ground is far different than theirs, so my dogs are often alone with the coyote for much longer, and doesnt allow for the reckless run up style of my friends dogs. I cant afford for my dogs to blow themselves up on the race or engage in a walking fight. I need/want my dogs to plant the coyote right where they catch it, and be sound enough to go catch another after I load them.

Dans July hounds will work a coyote more in the Tazi/Taigan style, and are the type of dogs I would use if I was after our wolves. Sending any dog that wants to come to grips with our wolves is not going end well, IMO. We may not agree on what works best, but we should each feed what we like best.

As Dan mentioned, if any of you fellas are ever on our side of the pond, look us up and we will go hunting. Bring a dog, and then we can all find out if they can or cant.

 

Take care.

[MR POACH 2]

what about a "DOGO ARGENTINO X DEER HOUND" SIZE, STAMINA, PREYDRIVE, them dogos have plenty of stamina and they aint banned for nothing, a touch of deerhound to bring the size up me thinks

Edited April 6, 2009 by MR POACH

[Guest ferret feller]

surelpyitbull crosss dog will kill that better then the other one

[Simoman 110]

surelpyitbull crosss dog will kill that better then the other one

 

 

Re-read UphillDocs post...........

 

UphillDoc, excellent post

[jakepotjo 3]

they would try but would they succed i very much dout it

 

pakistan akutta and gull dogs

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[wild dog 9]

There seems to be bit of confusion amongst some of the posters, so I will try to clear it up for those that have never hunted coyotes or wolves with dogs.

I have stated before I consider MYSELF a Bulldog man first and foremost, and my favorite dog was a 1/2 cross bullstag. She was not however the prototype for the perfect coyote dog, IMO, and I would have probably missed 3/4 of the coyotes we caught this year (over 100) if I would have had to depend only on a set (3 dogs) of dogs just like her.

 

First, having dogs capable of KILLING coyotes is NOT the hardest part of making a "coyote dog"! Any bullcross that cant/wont kill a coyote single handed is a cull, IMO. What folks are forgetting is the dog has to have the ability to FIRST run down the coyote, and thats not an easy task even for many long dogs. The good stags are the masters of the quick kill. They can run up to a coyote, throw it, and come up with the throat almost every time, and make it look easy. Generations of selecting dogs with the uncanny knack has produced a set "type" of dog (head dog).

 

Second, because a dog has the SPEED to catch a coyote does NOT mean it will make a "coyote dog" Folks here go thru literally 1000s of track dogs looking for the 1 that has the will to fight, and can stay sound. Most times the track dogs are bred to a stag in the hopes of getting that extra gear, but then bred away from in future breedings. As a rule, the rougher the ground you hunt, the less "hotblood" you will have in your dogs. The terrain folks hunt coyotes in can range from flat crop fields to hilly, rocky, cactus filled desert.

 

Third, Some folks are happy having a set of mixed specialists. Ie..a "catch dog" (extra fast dog, that may or may not help in the fight) A "head dog" and either a "pack dog" (fair at all aspects but not great at any) or another "head" or "chest dog" (helps at the kill as long as another dog has head pinned) While others prefer to try to have a set that any of the dogs can/will do any of the tasks, and can/will do it solo when the occasion presents itself, and those are the only kind that should be called "coyote dogs" IMO.

This is simply a matter of preferance, as is the STYLE in which they are caught. The example "Merrihunter" gave about the "smart" Tazi/Taigan style would get dogs culled at MY house, but doesnt mean they would catch any less game. I have good friends that catch as many coyotes as I do and they prefer faster, and "smarter" dogs than I do. Their emphasis is on how fast they can catch/stop the coyote and then they quickly intervene for the dogs and finish the coyote themselves. My ground is far different than theirs, so my dogs are often alone with the coyote for much longer, and doesnt allow for the reckless run up style of my friends dogs. I cant afford for my dogs to blow themselves up on the race or engage in a walking fight. I need/want my dogs to plant the coyote right where they catch it, and be sound enough to go catch another after I load them.

Dans July hounds will work a coyote more in the Tazi/Taigan style, and are the type of dogs I would use if I was after our wolves. Sending any dog that wants to come to grips with our wolves is not going end well, IMO. We may not agree on what works best, but we should each feed what we like best.

As Dan mentioned, if any of you fellas are ever on our side of the pond, look us up and we will go hunting. Bring a dog, and then we can all find out if they can or cant.

 

Take care.

 

NICE POST MATE VERY INTERESTING

[Buch 145]

Hi I like reading these posts from across the pond. Have i not read some one saying cyotes are moe like small wolves than large foxes? Is it not safe to assume then you would need a few more than say 3 dogs to run down a wolf? Ive read up on wolf hunting before and i was always of the opinion they used scent hounds more just because of the speed and lenth of hunt? Maybe a mixed pack of Scent hounds for the chase and some dogo argento/pit/whatever for the kill? Im sure accidents would happen with any kimd of dogs hunting wolves tho and im sure you would loose alot of dogs just because a wolf is a wolf/ Well yer good interesting thread (ps i dont pretend to know much/anything )

[Pops 19]

a wolf is not a wolf. there are different types.

coyotes when you skin them look an aweful lot like a large whippet or small grey but w/ a heavier head. basically the concept is it takes a really good sighthound to catch a really good sighthound. i've been told, if the foxhounds pile on at once & stretch the yote quick,they don't take much stick. ETA their are wolfers using pit & pitcrosses as den dogs on coyote. basically some USDA & private individuals send these 25-35# terriers into a hole w/ 1 or 2 adult 25-40# coyotes and their litter and they kill everything in the hole.

the reds near me are the same size as the coyotes here 35-55# normally w/ occassional wolves up to 70#. they run in smaller packs normally so they don't really bother the bear & deer hounds because they are facing dogs the same size in packs at least as big as their own (but usually about 1.5-2 dogs per wolf). a single could be handled w/bullcrosses (plural) if they can catch him. the point is moot because these can only be killed in defense of property & not for sport.

the timber wolves caught by Roosevelt ran 50-75# w/ exceptional ones up to 90#. the same stags & greys (coldbloods bred for the hunt & far more rugged than track & show dogs) used on coyote were used on these but in larger numbers. bullX dogs were used as killdogs along w/ others like Ulmers (the old name for brindle danes when they were still hard killing hunting dogs). the bullX blood was, to my knowledge, highly influential in the cunningham family line of coldbloods (people who can trace their dogs back to cunninghams at all, claim to have a high percentage of head & chest dogs). most wolfers in Roosevelt's time hunted them the way UphillDoc would cull for, that is the greys & stag bayed the wolf until the kill dog or the hunter arrived. in the case of wolfer John Abernethy he would then subdue the coyote or wolf by grabbing it's bottom jaw and pushing it toward the chest and then tie the feet together & jaws closed. his largest catch, a 94# timber wolf. he apparently made more by selling live wolves & coyotes to zoos and the like. Roosevelt wrote of him w/ unbirdled admiration. unlike Roosevelt, this is a trick i'd eventually like to do on coyote. having successfully used it to subdue some aggressive dogs of substantial size, i feel its not unreasonable

canadian/northern greys

this is the type introduced into Yellowstone. they wiped out the remaining native timberwolves. they normally run 90-120# (say 90-95% of the species), a very small percentage will be as small as 75# or as large as 150#. individuals over 150# are rare as hens teeth. they don't cut off from the pack easily & are much more aggressive in hunting & territorial fights than other kinds of wolves. the most important problem dogs running these wolves would face would be getting an individual to seperate from the pack. if they can do that a PACK of leggy well muscled thick skinned hard boned highly aggressive dogs in the 100-130# range should be able to stretch a single grey. by pack i mean a group of at least 5 dogs that will not string out & go their own way but stay together & fight together.

i firmly believe their are dogs that can kill the average grey solo, but they are far from common maybe 1 in 30,000 within certain breeds of the same size as the grey like boerboels, bullykuttas, dogos & ovtchartkas. the dog that can kill the large wolves are maybe 1 in 100,000. most importantly the dog that can survive the battle after a solo kill would be 1 in 500,000 to maybe 1 in a million. but such a dog that can do this AND run the wolf down would be as common as unicorns. realistically a solo dog isn't an option but i think pack dogs that can course or trail & kill these wolves would require 20 years of hard breeding & working just to get to the starting point. just my opinion & worth what you paid for it.

Edited April 7, 2009 by Pops

[RossM 7,979]

think i know what they are saying bull x couldnt do it all on these they'd burn themselfs out on the chase/catch, and wouldnt have the energy for the kill. probably just lock on to the arse and hold, taking a lot of punishment? whereas the stag has been bred for the chase and the kill?

Edited April 7, 2009 by codiethelurcher

[skycat 6,172]

Totally agree mate. You could have a thread on elephant hunting, someone would pipe up with, 'I'd do it with a Bull x...'

 

Classic!

[skycat 6,172]

I aint worried but I like coming on here and dont want anybody to be pissed at us fellas across the pond.

Dan: just remember that some of the 'hunters' on here would be pissed at someone who takes anything they don't or can't: a lot of them live in fantasy land LOL So don't you worry about pissing them off: I find it really interesting to see how other folks in the world hunt: keep the posts coming.

 

I genuinely wish that someone could take you up on your invitation to come over with their dogs and try to tackle coyote. I think that a lot of people just don't realise how fast a coyote can run

[TOPPER 1,809]

Dan: just remember that some of the 'hunters' on here would be pissed at someone who takes anything they don't or can't: a lot of them live in fantasy land LOL So don't you worry about pissing them off: I find it really interesting to see how other folks in the world hunt: keep the posts coming.

 

 

FANTASY LAND i love it , theres a lot of them on here full blown computer hunters it they saw a coyote or a wolf theyed shit themselves . LOL

[mackay 3,053]

Wolves were common in Scotland until around the 17th century and start of the 18th, there are quite a few places in Scotland which claim title to the last wolf killed but the general opinion is that it was in Morayshire in 1743 by a stalker named Macqueen with a deerhound or a deerhound type dog. Might be the wolf which was native to our shores was smaller than the americans (or perhaps deerhounds were bigger and heavier in those days) although the reason the wolf was being hunted in the first place was that it had reputedly killed two women and two children days previously so if this is true the wolf must have been a fair size and weight.