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That old Bucks Otter Hounds print is one of my absolute favourite otter hunting prints. They were originally produced as a fund raiser for the B.O.H. and if my memory serves me right were at that time

White terriers of old       Kilkenny, Ireland 1908        

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1 hour ago, Mixedgrill said:

So where do yea think the smooth came from in the black terrier?? Russell or staff 

Could you not ask a less emotive question, such as how to put an end to war and world poverty? Anyone trying to answer your question could well start a war of words on here :-).

Obviously there will be bull and (God forbid) Russell in some terriers around today that we would class as Patterdales. There will also be men who hand on heart can say that they have had Patts for generations and added nothing to the original dogs that they started with.

Black and smooth terriers were around before the famous dogs of Mr. Braey and Buck, as we all know, but I think most would agree that the whole "Patterdale" thing started with them. What was in their dogs? Why were they seen to be an improvement on the Fell, Border/Lakeland  or Russell types that everyone had else prior to this?

If anyone knows then they have never shared that knowledge with those that don't. Not publically.

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45 minutes ago, eastcoast said:

Could you not ask a less emotive question, such as how to put an end to war and world poverty? Anyone trying to answer your question could well start a war of words on here :-).

Obviously there will be bull and (God forbid) Russell in some terriers around today that we would class as Patterdales. There will also be men who hand on heart can say that they have had Patts for generations and added nothing to the original dogs that they started with.

Black and smooth terriers were around before the famous dogs of Mr. Braey and Buck, as we all know, but I think most would agree that the whole "Patterdale" thing started with them. What was in their dogs? Why were they seen to be an improvement on the Fell, Border/Lakeland  or Russell types that everyone had else prior to this?

If anyone knows then they have never shared that knowledge with those that don't. Not publically.

Well said, no one really knows what was outcrossed several generations back, never mind 100 years.

No matter what the colour if they work is all that matters.

(But we can still have some craic ribbing each other..)

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What always dumbfounds me is, it seems pretty much accepted that Breay started with the black Patterdales as we know them today. Which will have been late 50s/60s ish? At the time will have been the young Nuttall, Gould, Brightmore etc that carried it on. So why does it seem so impossible to pin what actually was crossed with what to produce the original, true to type ‘Black’ dogs of today?

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53 minutes ago, eastcoast said:

Could you not ask a less emotive question, such as how to put an end to war and world poverty? Anyone trying to answer your question could well start a war of words on here :-).

Obviously there will be bull and (God forbid) Russell in some terriers around today that we would class as Patterdales. There will also be men who hand on heart can say that they have had Patts for generations and added nothing to the original dogs that they started with.

Black and smooth terriers were around before the famous dogs of Mr. Braey and Buck, as we all know, but I think most would agree that the whole "Patterdale" thing started with them. What was in their dogs? Why were they seen to be an improvement on the Fell, Border/Lakeland  or Russell types that everyone had else prior to this?

If anyone knows then they have never shared that knowledge with those that don't. Not publically.

 eastcoast what’s a matter has your black dogs get white feet ? relax man fs knew someone would bite 

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