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20 hours ago, darbo said:

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Two excellent photographs, the Irish terrier from 1900 could easily pass for a working dog today. Pity the show crowd destroyed them.

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On 06/06/2019 at 16:24, p3d said:

RH,

Some early photographs with Black terriers,

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Before 1930 above.

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Dobson on the left.

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Kendlal Otterhounds 1930

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Spartacus, Great Grandson of Smithy who was born 1972 so this must late 70's , maybe 76-78

Note Gould calls them all Black Fell types.

 

 

I remember Spartacus from the mid to late 80's. Ken would peg him and his progeny out for all to see a shows.

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4 minutes ago, forest of dean redneck said:

35 litters from 15 months old , so the dog was mated just into its first season of work ? 

 wonder how much ken Was charging for a service back then?  Bet he made some poppy out of his dogs 👍

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Going back to the first black dogs( as we know them).

Here’s the pedigree for Breay’s ‘Gem’, it seems she’s the first proper black to appear.

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This is Gem

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And then there’s Davy, a son of Gem and so the type seems to have been set. 

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So is it fair to say Gem was the first proper black? 

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most black blood was bred from Tommy dobsons Choc's and he was breeding his choc's  eighty  years before Breay/Buck 

Edited by Glyn.....
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Obviously all blood has to go back to something Glyn, but what was it that all of a sudden stopped the lakie and bedlington look and began to produce the blacks like Gem, Davy, Skiffle? Thats the question I’m after answering.

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your blinded by the black mate , you should be looking at Ruby's breeding ;)  we all know people that bred just worker to worker i have mate that does it he had a choc bitch off me and couldn't work out why if he mated her to a russell he got black pups or a red he got  black pups and so on , it's easy choc is recessive dilution gene , once you mate them to any terrier carrying a black gene even if its only the nose or a few black hairs the self( all one color )  stays dominant but the recessive becomes that and you get self colored blacks  there been black about for hundreds of years, i was breeding a old book about borders and there is mention of the root stock beddy's dandys and borders coming black its all about fashion what's in vogue  also a 150 years ago dogs with red or putty's noses where class as better finders , we all know that to be true now :) 

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I understand exactly what youre saying Glyn, BUT what I don’t understand is what was the change or difference between all the other dogs up in the lakes to what Breay all of a sudden started producing, and is what is still being produced 50 years later. There must have been a defining factor?

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On 08/06/2019 at 18:05, Rabbit Hunter said:

I understand exactly what youre saying Glyn, BUT what I don’t understand is what was the change or difference between all the other dogs up in the lakes to what Breay all of a sudden started producing, and is what is still being produced 50 years later. There must have been a defining factor?

No its a case of you think this type started with Breay and Buck it didn't, i have  book that describe one of Tommy Dobsons Terriers and it would fit happelly  in my kennell now , photo taken 1912 ish , i'm putting pen to paper it all be there :) sorry i pressed enter before i had finished my post look at the dog in the background maybe some guy who just dug to his dogs kept a line , just work no show , and his blood was used as outcross by the famous 

 

 

Edited by Glyn.....
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3 minutes ago, Glyn..... said:

No its a case of you think this type started with Breay and Buck it didn't book that describe one of Tommy Dobsons Terriers and it would fit happelly  in my kennell now 

 

Ok, I’ll put it another way, why is there numerous pics of Buck and Breay with these black dogs, but none of Dobson etc with the same type of terriers, despite there being a lot of pics of Dobson with terriers that he owned?

It’s easy for people to write that there was black dogs about 100 years before, but why is there no pics of them despite there being literally 100s of pics of terriers and terriermen at that time?

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Also once Breay started breeding this type,  all of a sudden Buck, Westmoreland, Bell and further on Gould, Nuttall, Stacey had this type, what’s the chances of that?? The black type took off like a rocket. Why didn’t it take off before then?

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13 minutes ago, Rabbit Hunter said:

Ok, I’ll put it another way, why is there numerous pics of Buck and Breay with these black dogs, but none of Dobson etc with the same type of terriers, despite there being a lot of pics of Dobson with terriers that he owned?

It’s easy for people to write that there was black dogs about 100 years before, but why is there no pics of them despite there being literally 100s of pics of terriers and terriermen at that time?

:) see above edited 

Edited by Glyn.....
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40 minutes ago, Glyn..... said:

 i'm putting pen to paper it all be there :) 

 

 

As long as you promise that Frain will be drawing no pictures, I’ll take one😁

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