Random Question

[Cleanspade 3,322]

GTE is spot on!!!! im finished with terriers........if i never go on another dig again it wont bother me one iota........BUT i do class myself lucky to have spent 7 yrs (from 18 to 25) going digging with a keeper friend who was working on an estate as an underkeeper with a boss that was mad for digging and would be well known by most of the "names" into terriers........

 

my old terrier (robbie) was bred out of his best dog and his best bitch and i only got him because i knew him well and promised him i would work the dog properly........

 

 

i dug to him a fair few times (all well before the ban mind!!!) and i thought i had something special............i got an invite to go over to wales with the keepers to help a shepard out losing lambs to foxes...........we got there and tried robbie in a big earth, he ran through twice and came out saying nothing at home......the keeper said he wasnt convinced, ran robbies litter sister through and we dug a brace 15 mins later........

 

we moved on and i was distraught!!!! next earth we dug robbies litter brother and tried to get him to go again but he wouldnt (just wanted to rag the dead one lol) so gave robbie another go..........he starts baying but came away....... dropped his sister again and dug her out at 4ft right up to her matey!!!!

 

please dont get me wrong robbie was dug to a fair few times but i also used him for bushing/ratting etc while his brother and sister were only used for digging, nothing else!!!! all the local ratters/bushers thought robbie was the best thing since sliced bread........to them to see a terrier even want to go to ground was something special and i did use him on a couple of russel bitches and a lakeland bitch that only seen rabbits/rats/ foxes in cover etc and the pups were good at that game!!!

 

my underkeeper mate moved on and i went over to see the keeper that bred him one weekend to trial a bull cross and took robbie with me............i hadnt seen him for two years and he told me robbies brother got lost in a dig and said "real shame about that robbie" i asked him why and he said "id use him on a bitch here if he worked" i said he does and you bred him lol but he turned around and said "if you have ANY doubts about a dog then never use it as a stud, as them doubts could come out in the offspring years later"............at the time i thought he was knocking his own breeding...........now i realise he was just being honest................

 

if you cant dig to it........dont f*****g breed from it.......it really is that simple..........

but its not that simple is it. if it was this discussion wouldnt need to take place. on the face of it it is sound advice. but related to the original post. would you be better sticking to the tight lines or going outside them. to have a better chance. of continuing to consistantly produce the goods. did robbie quit becouse he was a quitter. or becouse he was owned by a young over keen lad that asked a little to much of him...? only you will know the answer to that. i know i asked to much of one or to and only recently ive realised that.

there is an old lakie not far from me that has never seen a days work never mind been dug. and if i had a mind for this sort i would breed off him without a second thought. different folk have different ways to get to the same place.

[gonetoearth 5,144]

 

GTE is spot on!!!! im finished with terriers........if i never go on another dig again it wont bother me one iota........BUT i do class myself lucky to have spent 7 yrs (from 18 to 25) going digging with a keeper friend who was working on an estate as an underkeeper with a boss that was mad for digging and would be well known by most of the "names" into terriers........

 

my old terrier (robbie) was bred out of his best dog and his best bitch and i only got him because i knew him well and promised him i would work the dog properly........

 

 

i dug to him a fair few times (all well before the ban mind!!!) and i thought i had something special............i got an invite to go over to wales with the keepers to help a shepard out losing lambs to foxes...........we got there and tried robbie in a big earth, he ran through twice and came out saying nothing at home......the keeper said he wasnt convinced, ran robbies litter sister through and we dug a brace 15 mins later........

 

we moved on and i was distraught!!!! next earth we dug robbies litter brother and tried to get him to go again but he wouldnt (just wanted to rag the dead one lol) so gave robbie another go..........he starts baying but came away....... dropped his sister again and dug her out at 4ft right up to her matey!!!!

 

please dont get me wrong robbie was dug to a fair few times but i also used him for bushing/ratting etc while his brother and sister were only used for digging, nothing else!!!! all the local ratters/bushers thought robbie was the best thing since sliced bread........to them to see a terrier even want to go to ground was something special and i did use him on a couple of russel bitches and a lakeland bitch that only seen rabbits/rats/ foxes in cover etc and the pups were good at that game!!!

 

my underkeeper mate moved on and i went over to see the keeper that bred him one weekend to trial a bull cross and took robbie with me............i hadnt seen him for two years and he told me robbies brother got lost in a dig and said "real shame about that robbie" i asked him why and he said "id use him on a bitch here if he worked" i said he does and you bred him lol but he turned around and said "if you have ANY doubts about a dog then never use it as a stud, as them doubts could come out in the offspring years later"............at the time i thought he was knocking his own breeding...........now i realise he was just being honest................

 

if you cant dig to it........dont f*****g breed from it.......it really is that simple..........

 

but its not that simple is it. if it was this discussion wouldnt need to take place. on the face of it it is sound advice. but related to the original post. would you be better sticking to the tight lines or going outside them. to have a better chance. of continuing to consistantly produce the goods. did robbie quit becouse he was a quitter. or becouse he was owned by a young over keen lad that asked a little to much of him...? only you will know the answer to that. i know i asked to much of one or to and only recently ive realised that.

there is an old lakie not far from me that has never seen a days work never mind been dug. and if i had a mind for this sort i would breed off him without a second thought. different folk have different ways to get to the same place.

.i was going to ask that very qestion but seen as This thred has gone scientific i thought better of asking a simple time honerd qestion. You posts speak volumes mr spade

[clipo 871]

 

 

 

 

GTE is spot on!!!! im finished with terriers........if i never go on another dig again it wont bother me one iota........BUT i do class myself lucky to have spent 7 yrs (from 18 to 25) going digging with a keeper friend who was working on an estate as an underkeeper with a boss that was mad for digging and would be well known by most of the "names" into terriers........

 

my old terrier (robbie) was bred out of his best dog and his best bitch and i only got him because i knew him well and promised him i would work the dog properly........

 

 

i dug to him a fair few times (all well before the ban mind!!!) and i thought i had something special............i got an invite to go over to wales with the keepers to help a shepard out losing lambs to foxes...........we got there and tried robbie in a big earth, he ran through twice and came out saying nothing at home......the keeper said he wasnt convinced, ran robbies litter sister through and we dug a brace 15 mins later........

 

we moved on and i was distraught!!!! next earth we dug robbies litter brother and tried to get him to go again but he wouldnt (just wanted to rag the dead one lol) so gave robbie another go..........he starts baying but came away....... dropped his sister again and dug her out at 4ft right up to her matey!!!!

 

please dont get me wrong robbie was dug to a fair few times but i also used him for bushing/ratting etc while his brother and sister were only used for digging, nothing else!!!! all the local ratters/bushers thought robbie was the best thing since sliced bread........to them to see a terrier even want to go to ground was something special and i did use him on a couple of russel bitches and a lakeland bitch that only seen rabbits/rats/ foxes in cover etc and the pups were good at that game!!!

 

my underkeeper mate moved on and i went over to see the keeper that bred him one weekend to trial a bull cross and took robbie with me............i hadnt seen him for two years and he told me robbies brother got lost in a dig and said "real shame about that robbie" i asked him why and he said "id use him on a bitch here if he worked" i said he does and you bred him lol but he turned around and said "if you have ANY doubts about a dog then never use it as a stud, as them doubts could come out in the offspring years later"............at the time i thought he was knocking his own breeding...........now i realise he was just being honest................

 

if you cant dig to it........dont f*****g breed from it.......it really is that simple..........

but its not that simple is it. if it was this discussion wouldnt need to take place. on the face of it it is sound advice. but related to the original post. would you be better sticking to the tight lines or going outside them. to have a better chance. of continuing to consistantly produce the goods. did robbie quit becouse he was a quitter. or becouse he was owned by a young over keen lad that asked a little to much of him...? only you will know the answer to that. i know i asked to much of one or to and only recently ive realised that.

there is an old lakie not far from me that has never seen a days work never mind been dug. and if i had a mind for this sort i would breed off him without a second thought. different folk have different ways to get to the same place.

 

i do agree with you mate.........i was young and keen plus he was my first terrier i had from a pup so probably did rush him........maybe taking him everywhere with me, taking him ratting and rabbiting meant he never took his earthwork serious (hope that makes sense lol) who knows but one interesting thing is his sister had two litters to two good terriers one of unknown breeding and one in the keepers kennel that he knew a few generations of......the dog of unknown breeding made the best workers by far!!!!

 

now whats to say all of the unknown dogs litter mates werent jibbers.......

 

tbh the threads a question that cant really be answered.........but it sure makes for an interesting debate.........

Edited May 19, 2014 by clipo

[Alimac2 321]

Anyone that says they've never had doubts in the way they entered & worked a particular dog would be to me , a lier or new into the game.

[pablo esc 1,598]

Some, would tell you that never put a foot wrong,

[gonetoearth 5,144]

Some, would tell you that never put a foot wrong,

. Or even a paw

[Cleanspade 3,322]

 

 

 

GTE is spot on!!!! im finished with terriers........if i never go on another dig again it wont bother me one iota........BUT i do class myself lucky to have spent 7 yrs (from 18 to 25) going digging with a keeper friend who was working on an estate as an underkeeper with a boss that was mad for digging and would be well known by most of the "names" into terriers........

 

my old terrier (robbie) was bred out of his best dog and his best bitch and i only got him because i knew him well and promised him i would work the dog properly........

 

 

i dug to him a fair few times (all well before the ban mind!!!) and i thought i had something special............i got an invite to go over to wales with the keepers to help a shepard out losing lambs to foxes...........we got there and tried robbie in a big earth, he ran through twice and came out saying nothing at home......the keeper said he wasnt convinced, ran robbies litter sister through and we dug a brace 15 mins later........

 

we moved on and i was distraught!!!! next earth we dug robbies litter brother and tried to get him to go again but he wouldnt (just wanted to rag the dead one lol) so gave robbie another go..........he starts baying but came away....... dropped his sister again and dug her out at 4ft right up to her matey!!!!

 

please dont get me wrong robbie was dug to a fair few times but i also used him for bushing/ratting etc while his brother and sister were only used for digging, nothing else!!!! all the local ratters/bushers thought robbie was the best thing since sliced bread........to them to see a terrier even want to go to ground was something special and i did use him on a couple of russel bitches and a lakeland bitch that only seen rabbits/rats/ foxes in cover etc and the pups were good at that game!!!

 

my underkeeper mate moved on and i went over to see the keeper that bred him one weekend to trial a bull cross and took robbie with me............i hadnt seen him for two years and he told me robbies brother got lost in a dig and said "real shame about that robbie" i asked him why and he said "id use him on a bitch here if he worked" i said he does and you bred him lol but he turned around and said "if you have ANY doubts about a dog then never use it as a stud, as them doubts could come out in the offspring years later"............at the time i thought he was knocking his own breeding...........now i realise he was just being honest................

 

if you cant dig to it........dont f*****g breed from it.......it really is that simple..........

but its not that simple is it. if it was this discussion wouldnt need to take place. on the face of it it is sound advice. but related to the original post. would you be better sticking to the tight lines or going outside them. to have a better chance. of continuing to consistantly produce the goods. did robbie quit becouse he was a quitter. or becouse he was owned by a young over keen lad that asked a little to much of him...? only you will know the answer to that. i know i asked to much of one or to and only recently ive realised that.

there is an old lakie not far from me that has never seen a days work never mind been dug. and if i had a mind for this sort i would breed off him without a second thought. different folk have different ways to get to the same place.

 

i do agree with you mate.........i was young and keen plus he was my first terrier i had from a pup so probably did rush him........maybe taking him everywhere with me, taking him ratting and rabbiting meant he never took his earthwork serious (hope that makes sense lol) who knows but one interesting thing is his sister had two litters to two good terriers one of unknown breeding and one in the keepers kennel that he knew a few generations of......the dog of unknown breeding made the best workers by far!!!!

 

now whats to say all of the unknown dogs litter mates werent jibbers.......

 

tbh the threads a question that cant really be answered.........but it sure makes for an interesting debate.........

i like these threads. as it shows there are no hard fast rules when your dealing with animals. what works for some wont work for others. and we all make mistakes . the other factor is that the end goal we search for is often very different between individual folk. so a lot of us are talking from a different perspective. happy hunting

[donnyc 1,203]

IMHO blood is blood..Ive a dog not far from me his parents worked well and his G/parents andGG/parents he is tightly bred he went to a young keeper for work but however he never saw the amount of work he should have ..Excells at rats squirrells and anything that moves LOL He has been known to escape often and is usually found in a big old place local..Would I use him??? Too right I would the bloods in there and not his fault he wasnt worked to his full potential..Two terriers sold to pet homes just sat in the kitchen with two old girls Summertime they went round the shows..A very well known russell breeder bought them at very good money Both flew to ground first time out these were a pair of 5 year olds They worked for two very well known terriermen to a high standard albeit both foxkilling dogs ..As said bloods blood

[marshman 7,756]

IMHO blood is blood..Ive a dog not far from me his parents worked well and his G/parents andGG/parents he is tightly bred he went to a young keeper for work but however he never saw the amount of work he should have ..Excells at rats squirrells and anything that moves LOL He has been known to escape often and is usually found in a big old place local..Would I use him??? Too right I would the bloods in there and not his fault he wasnt worked to his full potential..Two terriers sold to pet homes just sat in the kitchen with two old girls Summertime they went round the shows..A very well known russell breeder bought them at very good money Both flew to ground first time out these were a pair of 5 year olds They worked for two very well known terriermen to a high standard albeit both foxkilling dogs ..As said bloods blood

fair play but would you breed from him if he was out an out coward ?

[donnyc 1,203]

NO

[marshman 7,756]

NO

but blood is blood lol only joking mate I didn't think you would .

[gonetoearth 5,144]

Anyone that says they've never had doubts in the way they entered & worked a particular dog would be to me , a lier or new into the game.

. Every single time

[tinytiger 822]

 

Nice advanced answer jeems whuld you use the same tecniuqe to get rid of a bad mouth? I was just thinking today about the pups futres while watching them play running different what iff senarios threw my head ime interested in the genetic side of things as I think it's a deffinate advantage to have a a bit of knoladge on it... as I don't really belive in the put the best to the best and hope for the best ied like to think thers a bit more to it than that

You can get rid of any fault by in breeding even if both of your origional stock have the fault, but you do have to cull without question,to purefy the genes. I always try to remember that genes from both parents divide and rejoin randomly to form whole genes again in the offspring. This is simplifying it but its easier to understand. If you think of a gene as being a whole thing but made up of two parts.It can be DD double dominant, DR Dominant/recessive or RR double recessive. Thats how you can breed together two dogs that both express eg, determination but neither are pure DD for that trait,they are both DR,so that when they breed, a portion of the litter will be in RR and so will express the opposite to determination. If those dogs are culled out from the breeding programme each time relatives are bred back to each other its easy to see how the strain becomes purer for the desired traits. Eventually the strain will become DD double dominant for determination. When you outcross to a dog that has not also been inbred you will then allow in lots of recessive genes again. That may not be apparant straight away because the pure inbred dog would mask the unwanted trait DR but unless the offspring were mated back to him or another pure dog and the culling began again the opposite to determination RR would be present again.

Once you understand the randomness of it it becomes clear that systems of breeding are nothing more than wishful thinking. Instead of thinking of the status of a family member ie brother,sire auntie uncle etc, we should only think in terms of traits expressed and the soundness of the animal and its fitness to breed. Brother/sister Auntie/nephew sire/daughter is irrelevant. The aim should be to purefy the desired traits and make them all DD double dominant.

 

heres a little brain-teaser for you jeemes--a greyhound is put to a particular stud-dog ,8 out of 10 of them break 28.--mating repeated 4 times and they were all shite(not a hypothetical example)--i would imagine that genes for cowardice would be dominant,life being what it is and all that...Theres a few people on here who are wasted keeping terriers-they should start breeding thoroughbreds and become millionaires

[rob284 1,678]

 

 

Nice advanced answer jeems whuld you use the same tecniuqe to get rid of a bad mouth? I was just thinking today about the pups futres while watching them play running different what iff senarios threw my head ime interested in the genetic side of things as I think it's a deffinate advantage to have a a bit of knoladge on it... as I don't really belive in the put the best to the best and hope for the best ied like to think thers a bit more to it than that

You can get rid of any fault by in breeding even if both of your origional stock have the fault, but you do have to cull without question,to purefy the genes. I always try to remember that genes from both parents divide and rejoin randomly to form whole genes again in the offspring. This is simplifying it but its easier to understand. If you think of a gene as being a whole thing but made up of two parts.It can be DD double dominant, DR Dominant/recessive or RR double recessive. Thats how you can breed together two dogs that both express eg, determination but neither are pure DD for that trait,they are both DR,so that when they breed, a portion of the litter will be in RR and so will express the opposite to determination. If those dogs are culled out from the breeding programme each time relatives are bred back to each other its easy to see how the strain becomes purer for the desired traits. Eventually the strain will become DD double dominant for determination. When you outcross to a dog that has not also been inbred you will then allow in lots of recessive genes again. That may not be apparant straight away because the pure inbred dog would mask the unwanted trait DR but unless the offspring were mated back to him or another pure dog and the culling began again the opposite to determination RR would be present again.

Once you understand the randomness of it it becomes clear that systems of breeding are nothing more than wishful thinking. Instead of thinking of the status of a family member ie brother,sire auntie uncle etc, we should only think in terms of traits expressed and the soundness of the animal and its fitness to breed. Brother/sister Auntie/nephew sire/daughter is irrelevant. The aim should be to purefy the desired traits and make them all DD double dominant.

you cant make a desired gene become dominant. a recessive allele can only be recessive and nothing else, thats why these traits are harder to produce. for example, if gameness was governed by a single gene and was a ressesive type, you would need an allele from each parent, you cant make it dominant at all. double dominant is great if the gene only requires one allele to be active, double recessive is a great thing if the gene requires to alleles to present itself. and it is important you dont continually breed close as nature has its own way of dealing with matching dna being bred together. ever heard of burnley!

[tinytiger 822]

It's been proven it's not always the best worker/performer that's the best producer when it comes to breeding, if you found yourself in the situation you have thought up, then you have a choice to make, some will some won't. But the first question I'd ask meself is could I have faith in dogs bred out a jacker???

is genetics always the reason for that though?maybe the lesser performer was cheap to breed to ,therefore got loads of bitches/mares and some of the pups/foals were bound to be good.