Random Question

[jeemes 3,547]

 

 

Nice advanced answer jeems whuld you use the same tecniuqe to get rid of a bad mouth? I was just thinking today about the pups futres while watching them play running different what iff senarios threw my head ime interested in the genetic side of things as I think it's a deffinate advantage to have a a bit of knoladge on it... as I don't really belive in the put the best to the best and hope for the best ied like to think thers a bit more to it than that

You can get rid of any fault by in breeding even if both of your origional stock have the fault, but you do have to cull without question,to purefy the genes. I always try to remember that genes from both parents divide and rejoin randomly to form whole genes again in the offspring. This is simplifying it but its easier to understand. If you think of a gene as being a whole thing but made up of two parts.It can be DD double dominant, DR Dominant/recessive or RR double recessive. Thats how you can breed together two dogs that both express eg, determination but neither are pure DD for that trait,they are both DR,so that when they breed, a portion of the litter will be in RR and so will express the opposite to determination. If those dogs are culled out from the breeding programme each time relatives are bred back to each other its easy to see how the strain becomes purer for the desired traits. Eventually the strain will become DD double dominant for determination. When you outcross to a dog that has not also been inbred you will then allow in lots of recessive genes again. That may not be apparant straight away because the pure inbred dog would mask the unwanted trait DR but unless the offspring were mated back to him or another pure dog and the culling began again the opposite to determination RR would be present again.

Once you understand the randomness of it it becomes clear that systems of breeding are nothing more than wishful thinking. Instead of thinking of the status of a family member ie brother,sire auntie uncle etc, we should only think in terms of traits expressed and the soundness of the animal and its fitness to breed. Brother/sister Auntie/nephew sire/daughter is irrelevant. The aim should be to purefy the desired traits and make them all DD double dominant.

you cant make a desired gene become dominant. a recessive allele can only be recessive and nothing else, thats why these traits are harder to produce. for example, if gameness was governed by a single gene and was a ressesive type, you would need an allele from each parent, you cant make it dominant at all. double dominant is great if the gene only requires one allele to be active, double recessive is a great thing if the gene requires to alleles to present itself. and it is important you dont continually breed close as nature has its own way of dealing with matching dna being bred together. ever heard of burnley!

 

You dont turn recessive genes into dominant you remove them from the breeding by culling. Its narrowing down.

[gonetoearth 5,144]

 

 

 

Nice advanced answer jeems whuld you use the same tecniuqe to get rid of a bad mouth? I was just thinking today about the pups futres while watching them play running different what iff senarios threw my head ime interested in the genetic side of things as I think it's a deffinate advantage to have a a bit of knoladge on it... as I don't really belive in the put the best to the best and hope for the best ied like to think thers a bit more to it than that

 

You can get rid of any fault by in breeding even if both of your origional stock have the fault, but you do have to cull without question,to purefy the genes. I always try to remember that genes from both parents divide and rejoin randomly to form whole genes again in the offspring. This is simplifying it but its easier to understand. If you think of a gene as being a whole thing but made up of two parts.It can be DD double dominant, DR Dominant/recessive or RR double recessive. Thats how you can breed together two dogs that both express eg, determination but neither are pure DD for that trait,they are both DR,so that when they breed, a portion of the litter will be in RR and so will express the opposite to determination. If those dogs are culled out from the breeding programme each time relatives are bred back to each other its easy to see how the strain becomes purer for the desired traits. Eventually the strain will become DD double dominant for determination. When you outcross to a dog that has not also been inbred you will then allow in lots of recessive genes again. That may not be apparant straight away because the pure inbred dog would mask the unwanted trait DR but unless the offspring were mated back to him or another pure dog and the culling began again the opposite to determination RR would be present again.

Once you understand the randomness of it it becomes clear that systems of breeding are nothing more than wishful thinking. Instead of thinking of the status of a family member ie brother,sire auntie uncle etc, we should only think in terms of traits expressed and the soundness of the animal and its fitness to breed. Brother/sister Auntie/nephew sire/daughter is irrelevant. The aim should be to purefy the desired traits and make them all DD double dominant.

you cant make a desired gene become dominant. a recessive allele can only be recessive and nothing else, thats why these traits are harder to produce. for example, if gameness was governed by a single gene and was a ressesive type, you would need an allele from each parent, you cant make it dominant at all. double dominant is great if the gene only requires one allele to be active, double recessive is a great thing if the gene requires to alleles to present itself. and it is important you dont continually breed close as nature has its own way of dealing with matching dna being bred together. ever heard of burnley!

You dont turn recessive genes into dominant you remove them from the breeding by culling. Its narrowing down.

. Very scientific that lol

[gonetoearth 5,144]

Spend ages. Droning on about genes then. Says culling is the answer NO FOOKING SHIT SHERLOCK. Lol

Edited May 20, 2014 by gonetoearth

[swede40 92]

Bloods blood, shouldnt breed from jackers, the best worker does not always produce the best workers, etc etc etc the pro's and cons are endless if you really sat down and thought about it is there really a right or wrong answer to the question with so many ifs and buts at the end of the day everybody is going to have there own reasons for a yeah or a no it simply comes down to personel choice, my theory is i wouldnt breed from a jacker i would of smacked the f****r on the head but if i was really stuck and had a younger untested dog i was not 100 % on and i wanted to keep it tight i would and i would smack them fuckers on the head to if they failed but then again even the best dog i had producing still didnt give me 100% full working litters every time oh shit back to the drawing board again

[foxdropper 17,092]

You will never breed a full litter of workers if your standards are high ,not just my opinion ,fact . 75% is very good.

[gonetoearth 5,144]

And you might produce 75% if your standeds are worker to worker you best to you best because thats the way it is

SOME WILL SOME WONT.

[swede40 92]

My point exactly so to keep it tight i would take a pun if i was stuck i wouldnt be happy about it but shit happens i am quite sure if i used an untested dog from a nice tight line on a bitch i would get a couple that did go i would feel much safer doing that than introducing an outcross like i said its all personell choice

[tallyboy 32]

CHEERS SWEDE40,ITS A CHOICE IVE HAD TO MAKE,THE DOG LIKE I SAID IS ONLY DOG FAR ENOUGH AWAY TO BREED FROM,AND DOG MAY NEVER GET TO SEE A HOLE AS BLOKE WHO HAS HIM HAS 2 BITCHES TO BRED FROM TO HIM,HES BEEN INTO TERRIERS LONGER THAN ME,SO IF PUPS TURN OUT SHITE THEN BACK TO DRAWING BOARD AND MY BITCH WONT BE GETTING BRED AT 8 YEARS OLD,SO FINGERS CROSSED,,

[rob284 1,678]

 

 

 

 

Nice advanced answer jeems whuld you use the same tecniuqe to get rid of a bad mouth? I was just thinking today about the pups futres while watching them play running different what iff senarios threw my head ime interested in the genetic side of things as I think it's a deffinate advantage to have a a bit of knoladge on it... as I don't really belive in the put the best to the best and hope for the best ied like to think thers a bit more to it than that

You can get rid of any fault by in breeding even if both of your origional stock have the fault, but you do have to cull without question,to purefy the genes. I always try to remember that genes from both parents divide and rejoin randomly to form whole genes again in the offspring. This is simplifying it but its easier to understand. If you think of a gene as being a whole thing but made up of two parts.It can be DD double dominant, DR Dominant/recessive or RR double recessive. Thats how you can breed together two dogs that both express eg, determination but neither are pure DD for that trait,they are both DR,so that when they breed, a portion of the litter will be in RR and so will express the opposite to determination. If those dogs are culled out from the breeding programme each time relatives are bred back to each other its easy to see how the strain becomes purer for the desired traits. Eventually the strain will become DD double dominant for determination. When you outcross to a dog that has not also been inbred you will then allow in lots of recessive genes again. That may not be apparant straight away because the pure inbred dog would mask the unwanted trait DR but unless the offspring were mated back to him or another pure dog and the culling began again the opposite to determination RR would be present again.

Once you understand the randomness of it it becomes clear that systems of breeding are nothing more than wishful thinking. Instead of thinking of the status of a family member ie brother,sire auntie uncle etc, we should only think in terms of traits expressed and the soundness of the animal and its fitness to breed. Brother/sister Auntie/nephew sire/daughter is irrelevant. The aim should be to purefy the desired traits and make them all DD double dominant.

you cant make a desired gene become dominant. a recessive allele can only be recessive and nothing else, thats why these traits are harder to produce. for example, if gameness was governed by a single gene and was a ressesive type, you would need an allele from each parent, you cant make it dominant at all. double dominant is great if the gene only requires one allele to be active, double recessive is a great thing if the gene requires to alleles to present itself. and it is important you dont continually breed close as nature has its own way of dealing with matching dna being bred together. ever heard of burnley!

You dont turn recessive genes into dominant you remove them from the breeding by culling. Its narrowing down.

it doesnt work like that mate. r and d and no better than each other.

[swede40 92]

CHEERS SWEDE40,ITS A CHOICE IVE HAD TO MAKE,THE DOG LIKE I SAID IS ONLY DOG FAR ENOUGH AWAY TO BREED FROM,AND DOG MAY NEVER GET TO SEE A HOLE AS BLOKE WHO HAS HIM HAS 2 BITCHES TO BRED FROM TO HIM,HES BEEN INTO TERRIERS LONGER THAN ME,SO IF PUPS TURN OUT SHITE THEN BACK TO DRAWING BOARD AND MY BITCH WONT BE GETTING BRED AT 8 YEARS OLD,SO FINGERS CROSSED,,

If i was stuck i would breed a bitch at 8 as well infact if i was really stuck a bitch would have to be in the ground cold or she would be getting shafted

[pablo esc 1,598]

Has some of these dogs lost, what they where, 30 year ago, the border lakeys, Russell, patts, we're fairly good, around and about, alot of good digging men, packed up. And for a while along the way folk would lose good dog's and then the names game, raving on shite, looks, money. Some people done well to keep a strain going, hard under circumstances

[foxdropper 17,092]

Rob 284-

Listen mate ,the only way to ensure you are on the right track is to cull whatever dosnt suit you.Without this you are pissing in the wind .You are left with dominant genes that have been set by selective breeding .Dont over complicate it as you will get nowhere .Cant stress strongly enough about the culling side as not many have the stomach for it but wonder why they get nowhere .

[jeemes 3,547]

 

 

 

 

Nice advanced answer jeems whuld you use the same tecniuqe to get rid of a bad mouth? I was just thinking today about the pups futres while watching them play running different what iff senarios threw my head ime interested in the genetic side of things as I think it's a deffinate advantage to have a a bit of knoladge on it... as I don't really belive in the put the best to the best and hope for the best ied like to think thers a bit more to it than that

You can get rid of any fault by in breeding even if both of your origional stock have the fault, but you do have to cull without question,to purefy the genes. I always try to remember that genes from both parents divide and rejoin randomly to form whole genes again in the offspring. This is simplifying it but its easier to understand. If you think of a gene as being a whole thing but made up of two parts.It can be DD double dominant, DR Dominant/recessive or RR double recessive. Thats how you can breed together two dogs that both express eg, determination but neither are pure DD for that trait,they are both DR,so that when they breed, a portion of the litter will be in RR and so will express the opposite to determination. If those dogs are culled out from the breeding programme each time relatives are bred back to each other its easy to see how the strain becomes purer for the desired traits. Eventually the strain will become DD double dominant for determination. When you outcross to a dog that has not also been inbred you will then allow in lots of recessive genes again. That may not be apparant straight away because the pure inbred dog would mask the unwanted trait DR but unless the offspring were mated back to him or another pure dog and the culling began again the opposite to determination RR would be present again.

Once you understand the randomness of it it becomes clear that systems of breeding are nothing more than wishful thinking. Instead of thinking of the status of a family member ie brother,sire auntie uncle etc, we should only think in terms of traits expressed and the soundness of the animal and its fitness to breed. Brother/sister Auntie/nephew sire/daughter is irrelevant. The aim should be to purefy the desired traits and make them all DD double dominant.

you cant make a desired gene become dominant. a recessive allele can only be recessive and nothing else, thats why these traits are harder to produce. for example, if gameness was governed by a single gene and was a ressesive type, you would need an allele from each parent, you cant make it dominant at all. double dominant is great if the gene only requires one allele to be active, double recessive is a great thing if the gene requires to alleles to present itself. and it is important you dont continually breed close as nature has its own way of dealing with matching dna being bred together. ever heard of burnley!

You dont turn recessive genes into dominant you remove them from the breeding by culling. Its narrowing down.

it doesnt work like that mate. r and d and no better than each other.

 

I dont think I said better.It either a desired (by man not nature)trait or it isnt.Its only better or worse in the eyes of the breeder. I also said "this is simplifying it but its easier to understand". Im interested in what you are saying,Im always trying to get my head around it like everyone else..Are you saying there is no dominence? Ever heard of Robert Bakewell ?...He gave us most of the standardised farm breeds we have today. He did it mainly by breeding in and in,selection and culling. Why do you think he bred in and in if he couldnt manipulate gene formation? and why cull?

[tallyboy 32]

To foxdropper,,at what age do you cull?? I know weve had a bit banter before,but im stuck and must use this untried but related dog,,the litters have produced either bitch only or 1 dog litters,and some are a bit close either litter brother,her son or her half brother,im not to keen on going that close,,dog is her grandson and great grandson on both sides,but totally untried and his owner a well known north east border keeper aswell don't want to loose him,i got a phone call before saying her great grandfather is still alive but nearly 15,,do I try him?? he sired a litter 9 mths ago or do I go to untried dog? same lines but a total non worker,I know where bitches are that my bitches son can go to,,i used her uncle last time,although pups keen and im happy with dog,bitch a bit slow,size down a bit when I sized him against same line pics,,bitch ready,and im putting it off daily,got until Friday at latest to catch her,,so either untried dog or old dog??? and im up late as don't sleep much as bad leg hurts more of a night,i power nap thru day,,cheers lads,,TALLY HO!!!!

[gonetoearth 5,144]

Breeding stock cattle and sheep pigs. Even race horses are as far detached from breeding working terries as the wright brothers and the space shuttle Lol The holy grail in stock breeding for meat Less fat etc in the meat etc Smaller lager etc has nothing to do with working terriers there is no comparisons. These are pedigree stock. Generations of breeding to perfect form to produce A standed Unless you commission scientific sampling of blood lines carry out genetical investigations and spend the same money all your theory's are just thats theory's , xbred terriers Are a type.records loosely kept. Keep all the records you want keep your lines as tight as you want still some will some wont why because nature says so , To compare. Blood stock and working terriers A multimillion pound industry with the backing of nations agriculture facilities Who have banks of data not guess work. Get a grip please , Robert bakewell. And who frank buck lol. Yeh. Passing down a working trait. Gameness etc etc. Is imprinted in the brain passed on. And acheived by who knows what producing the same size colour standed Time after time year after year to eat grass and produce meat. Is a science , the welsh black the jersey. Conform to a standed. There traits the black is a docile breed the jersey a moody fooker. Generalisations , but size and form will be The same throughout the herds to a general standed , working terriers have no set standed but for a general agreement within a small community We search for the working trait an unseen standed undefined by physical form witch can only be seen in work we can not guarentee it