bird 9,594 Posted August 21, 2014 Report Share Posted August 21, 2014 Can I ask DB a straight question - no attempts to trick or trip up. Straight question, straight answer ! You're the only person here who can answer it with any kind of insight, you see........... What would happen if the very, very highest and most respected Muslim clerics( preachers, Ayatollahs, whatever you want to call them) called on ALL followers to turn against non-believers, and take the path to Jihad ? Would followers' loyalties be to the laws of their resident country, or would they be obligated to obey the clerics ? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
gnasher16 29,664 Posted August 21, 2014 Report Share Posted August 21, 2014 and us" Muslims" think you treat your women badly In what way ? I will reverse your question do you think European and British women have equality with males in your society? and I mean in reality not on paper. Why would you answer a question with a question ?.....it wasnt a trick question mate i feel no need to justify British ways..........im merely asking you a question on a statement you made thats all ? the statement I made was a rhetorical response to Tomo when he said westeners think we treat women badly or do you also only read the bits you want? I read it all......but i only ask a question on something id like explained...............i guess thats a little bit too basic for a man of your calibre ...............If you didnt want to answer it mate you could of just ignored it nothing is to basic but why explain a rhetorical comment it is like explaining the punch line of a joke no offence meant Im not the brightest bulb in the pack sometimes i do actually need the punchline of a joke explained.......but hey if your pressed for time no problem it wont keep me awake tonight And yes you do treat women badly (not all mind) that's why when you see the groups of Joe Rakis on Blackpool prom the women are always 20 steps behind the men its because the flies are always round the men oops stereo typing must stop doing it I see......id just put it down to shrapnel Quote Link to post Share on other sites
desertbred 5,490 Posted August 21, 2014 Report Share Posted August 21, 2014 (edited) Can I ask DB a straight question - no attempts to trick or trip up. Straight question, straight answer ! You're the only person here who can answer it with any kind of insight, you see........... What would happen if the very, very highest and most respected Muslim clerics( preachers, Ayatollahs, whatever you want to call them) called on ALL followers to turn against non-believers, and take the path to Jihad ? Would followers' loyalties be to the laws of their resident country, or would they be obligated to obey the clerics ? One of the most powerful Atatollahs for shia Muslims was Ayatollah Khomeini if Iran was attacked then 90% Iranians would return home to defend the country., I cannot remember him ever giving any Fatwa to take the fight to a foreign land, Even the touble in London to all intent and purposes was in the Iranian Embassy which under international law is Iranian territory, The present day Spiritual Leader in Iran is Ayatollah Khanenai he is a very religious and intelligent man I honestly dont think he was see an instance to attack a foreign country except maybe Isreal. Cetainly he would give order to defend Iran, Now the Iranian Goverment does give monetary and physical help and arms to Hamas . to Fata, to Hezbollah, Syria because these groups and the countries they are based are under attack by wWestern funded groups this is not conspiracy theory this is fact. Now Iran will begin supplying the necassary including assistance of the Pasandara (Revolutionary Guard) to fight against Isis in Iraq and Syria. . We fought an 8 year war against the Iraq of Saddam Takhriti we did not start it he was being ochestrated by we all know who untill the chemical weapons they supplied him to use against us were first used against the Marsh Arabs in Southern Iraqand then against the Kurds in the north. He was then encouraged to invade Kuwait by the same Masters which then was used as the excuse to put The First Gulf war on the Ground (Desert Storm) later leading to Bush,s Son doing a second Gulf war with Blair to find the WMD and Chemical weapons they were sure were there only to find he had used them all previously on his own people. So I cannot see an Ayatollah wanting a full Blown war I cant see how we would benefit. I cant see the Sunni factions leaders declaring aan all out war as they have to much disunity and no one leader has the sufficient power to call for a jihad in the Sunni communities. The terorrism that is happening now is factional and split into small groups or alliances I dont consider these to be Jihadi as suicide is not condoned in islam and neither is war on the old infrm women or children in fact it is forbidden. So no I dont forsee in my life time at least anyone calling for an all out jihad .That is my opinion no doubt now I will be accused of lying making conspiracy theories deceiving because some claim islam tells you to. I have answered as honestly as I can. I dont support terorrism in any way shape or form I would fight on the side of Islam if a jihad were to ever come but would pray the situation never arose. I dont think people like Qatadar Hamza, Anjum Chaudry Bin Laden, did anything for islam except create animosity. These boys going from here to join ISIS the young boys recruited by the Taliban , Alquaeda, Boka Haram Shahbab they are cannon fodder and have been brainwashed as claimed. the Islam they espouse to and claim to follow is not the Islam I have as a faith and that I would fight to defend but would I encourage terorrism here or any where else the answer is firmly No . Would I fight on the streets of UK no unless some one attacked me or my family would I fight to defend Iranian borders yes as I have done in the past and even at my age would do in the future. Any Muslim with an ounce of common sense would have to make their own choices but as said I cant see a leader who will call for Jihad. Edited August 21, 2014 by desertbred Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Guest ragumup Posted August 21, 2014 Report Share Posted August 21, 2014 Paulus a viable alterative to oil ? the middle east would go back to the stone age.............economically anyway. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Hareydave 1,214 Posted August 21, 2014 Author Report Share Posted August 21, 2014 would this man of been shown any respect after he was beheaded Quote Link to post Share on other sites
hutch6 550 Posted August 21, 2014 Report Share Posted August 21, 2014 Really? Please can you point me to the official document that states this as the Vienna Convention makes no claim that the premises of any embassy is classed as the land of the occupying country. The land that the embassy resides on belongs to the hosting country or you'd end up with a right mess. http://legal.un.org/ilc/texts/instruments/english/conventions/9_1_1961.pdf - article 21 onwards. I think you are going with an urban legend type Chinese whisper. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
desertbred 5,490 Posted August 21, 2014 Report Share Posted August 21, 2014 The ones who did it showed him no respect before they beheaded him or it would not have happened. They just kill for killing sake not in the name of islam ,not in the name of justice not in the name of honour, They would behead anyone not in there group they have no respect and in turn do not desrve any. you cannot fight this isis with any ground rules and the convention dont even bring a copy. In islam a body even of your enemy should not be mishandled itn a murderer beheaded by islamic law it buried respectfully. I have have seen these type of groups use a head as a football so dont expect anything except barbarism nothing to do with respect would occur to them . Any opposition fighters will suffer the same or even worse abuse if caught by them Quote Link to post Share on other sites
desertbred 5,490 Posted August 21, 2014 Report Share Posted August 21, 2014 (edited) Really? Please can you point me to the official document that states this as the Vienna Convention makes no claim that the premises of any embassy is classed as the land of the occupying country. The land that the embassy resides on belongs to the hosting country or you'd end up with a right mess. http://legal.un.org/ilc/texts/instruments/english/conventions/9_1_1961.pdf - article 21 onwards. I think you are going with an urban legend type Chinese whisper. A foriegn Embassy has diplomatic immunity as do Diplomats t6his is accepted around the world a sovereign state also has the obligation to protect foreign Embassis and missions now go find out.The host country for swears the right to enter a foreign embassies premises this is in the Vienna convention Edited August 21, 2014 by desertbred Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Blackbriar 8,568 Posted August 21, 2014 Report Share Posted August 21, 2014 Desertbred - thank you for being so honest, but you didn't quite answer my question. Maybe I can re-phrase it......... I appreciate that not all Muslims would heed a call to Jihad, yourself included, but IF such a call were made, would you be seen as a heretic ( for want of a better word), for failing to follow your faith 'correctly' ? I guess I'm trying to enquire whether some be swayed to do things they wouldn't ordinarily do, if their faith demanded it ? Hope that's a bit clearer........... Like I said, just a genuine question, not an attempt to trip anyone up..................... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
desertbred 5,490 Posted August 21, 2014 Report Share Posted August 21, 2014 (edited) Desertbred - thank you for being so honest, but you didn't quite answer my question. Maybe I can re-phrase it......... I appreciate that not all Muslims would heed a call to Jihad, yourself included, but IF such a call were made, would you be seen as a heretic ( for want of a better word), for failing to follow your faith 'correctly' ? I guess I'm trying to enquire whether some be swayed to do things they wouldn't ordinarily do, if their faith demanded it ? Hope that's a bit clearer........... Like I said, just a genuine question, not an attempt to trip anyone up..................... who would say I am not following my faith correctly Jihad is war in the Name of Allah certain criteria have to be fulfilled or there would be anarchy The king of Arabia could order his country men to war but it would not be jihad. If the spiritual leader called for Jihad he would have to show under what conditions and it would have to be endorsed by the Supreme council if I wished to challenge the order and was sure of my ground I would have every right rto do so. Islam is a religion and way of life of choice that is made clear in the Qran you can pray give charity , fast say Kalma and fight jihad these are five pillars of islam when a child is born the call to prayer and the Kalma is spoken into its ears that basically means the chilsdis now a muslim the obligations to go futher than reciting kalma has to be by choice. If Sadaam Hussain called for jihad he claimed to be Muslim I would not be obliged to follow him Bin laden why didnt he call for world jihad because he knew he did not have the right or the authority/ Some people follow blindly like Donkeys hence these british youth going to join these gangs but a man of morals who understands what it would entail would have yo be convinced. I served 30 years in the military in Iran I fought 8 years in the Iran Iraq conflict this was war not jihad why didnt Ayatollah Khomeini call for jihad because it wasnt justified to be jihad it was an attack by an aggressor . and was politically motivated attack. we were not being attacked for anything other than territorial or financial gain. If a youth becomes a suicide bomber and explodes his vest killing innocent women and children the very act is not permitted to commit suicide in islam so how could it be justified as jihad some of these gobshite groups would like to or probably would try to call the attack jihad but it would not be it would be murder. that is a reason tat indiscriminate bombing from an aircraft could also never be classed as jihad because you could kill anyone besides your enemy combatants Edited August 21, 2014 by desertbred Quote Link to post Share on other sites
3175darren 1,093 Posted August 21, 2014 Report Share Posted August 21, 2014 What we are forgetting is, people talk about or involvement over there, and yes we may hold some blame for the current void the fanatics are fighting to fill,but forgetting our involvement in Iraq,over the invasion of Kuwait,don't forget the attack on the twin towers,God rest there soles, where a direct attack was made against American civilians,this in its self was an act of war,and enough reason to declare war,but no the brave young men went in after the Taliban,and not directly target anything else, the attacks in London,and other places in the world,that Muslim extremists have attacked innocent people, going about there own business,it is a hate religion intolerant of any other religion or other peoples rights,bigoted in its attitude,that twines on how we must recognize there needs and religion,we must be tolerant to there ways,give them more rights than our own civilians have,and we do try to be tolerant, but we are repaid by being bombed, threatend kidnapped and be-headed,our kids brain washed,and made into second class citizens, its sickening and whatever you think the Muslim religion is at the center of it, Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Plummerterrier 291 Posted August 21, 2014 Report Share Posted August 21, 2014 Just watched a good muslim gangster film... scarf face Quote Link to post Share on other sites
paulus 26 Posted August 21, 2014 Report Share Posted August 21, 2014 Desertbred - thank you for being so honest, but you didn't quite answer my question. Maybe I can re-phrase it......... I appreciate that not all Muslims would heed a call to Jihad, yourself included, but IF such a call were made, would you be seen as a heretic ( for want of a better word), for failing to follow your faith 'correctly' ? I guess I'm trying to enquire whether some be swayed to do things they wouldn't ordinarily do, if their faith demanded it ? Hope that's a bit clearer........... Like I said, just a genuine question, not an attempt to trip anyone up..................... who would say I am not following my faith correctly Jihad is war in the Name of Allah certain criteria have to be fulfilled or there would be anarchy The king of Arabia could order his country men to war but it would not be jihad. If the spiritual leader called for Jihad he would have to show under what conditions and it would have to be endorsed by the Supreme council if I wished to challenge the order and was sure of my ground I would have every right rto do so. Islam is a religion and way of life of choice that is made clear in the Qran you can pray give charity , fast say Kalma and fight jihad these are five pillars of islam when a child is born the call to prayer and the Kalma is spoken into its ears that basically means the chilsdis now a muslim the obligations to go futher than reciting kalma has to be by choice. If Sadaam Hussain called for jihad he claimed to be Muslim I would not be obliged to follow him Bin laden why didnt he call for world jihad because he knew he did not have the right or the authority/ Some people follow blindly like Donkeys hence these british youth going to join these gangs but a man of morals who understands what it would entail would have yo be convinced. I served 30 years in the military in Iran I fought 8 years in the Iran Iraq conflict this was war not jihad why didnt Ayatollah Khomeini call for jihad because it wasnt justified to be jihad it was an attack by an aggressor . and was politically motivated attack. we were not being attacked for anything other than territorial or financial gain i wish you could convince all other Muslims in the world of this, we might even start to get somewhere. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
hutch6 550 Posted August 21, 2014 Report Share Posted August 21, 2014 Really? Please can you point me to the official document that states this as the Vienna Convention makes no claim that the premises of any embassy is classed as the land of the occupying country. The land that the embassy resides on belongs to the hosting country or you'd end up with a right mess. http://legal.un.org/ilc/texts/instruments/english/conventions/9_1_1961.pdf - article 21 onwards. I think you are going with an urban legend type Chinese whisper. A foriegn Embassy has diplomatic immunity as do Diplomats t6his is accepted around the world a sovereign state also has the obligation to protect foreign Embassis and missions now go find out.The host country for swears the right to enter a foreign embassies premises this is in the Vienna convention The heck are you on about?!?!? So, the French diplomat is round at the American embassy for pre-arranged tea and biscuits. After a while things get out of hand and the American diplomat shoots the French diplomat. You're telling me that the British police can't arrest the American Diplomat and have to wait for American Police to arrest him? Incidentally Grosvenor Square is owned by The Duke of Westminster and the Americans were only a granted a 999yr lease after trying to buy it. The Embassy for Ecuador and Colombia share the same building in London as well. Work that one out if they all own the buildings they are in and it is classed as "their soil". I think it is YOU that needs to "go find out". Quote Link to post Share on other sites
desertbred 5,490 Posted August 21, 2014 Report Share Posted August 21, 2014 Desertbred - thank you for being so honest, but you didn't quite answer my question. Maybe I can re-phrase it......... I appreciate that not all Muslims would heed a call to Jihad, yourself included, but IF such a call were made, would you be seen as a heretic ( for want of a better word), for failing to follow your faith 'correctly' ? I guess I'm trying to enquire whether some be swayed to do things they wouldn't ordinarily do, if their faith demanded it ? Hope that's a bit clearer........... Like I said, just a genuine question, not an attempt to trip anyone up..................... who would say I am not following my faith correctly Jihad is war in the Name of Allah certain criteria have to be fulfilled or there would be anarchy The king of Arabia could order his country men to war but it would not be jihad. If the spiritual leader called for Jihad he would have to show under what conditions and it would have to be endorsed by the Supreme council if I wished to challenge the order and was sure of my ground I would have every right rto do so. Islam is a religion and way of life of choice that is made clear in the Qran you can pray give charity , fast say Kalma and fight jihad these are five pillars of islam when a child is born the call to prayer and the Kalma is spoken into its ears that basically means the chilsdis now a muslim the obligations to go futher than reciting kalma has to be by choice. If Sadaam Hussain called for jihad he claimed to be Muslim I would not be obliged to follow him Bin laden why didnt he call for world jihad because he knew he did not have the right or the authority/ Some people follow blindly like Donkeys hence these british youth going to join these gangs but a man of morals who understands what it would entail would have yo be convinced. I served 30 years in the military in Iran I fought 8 years in the Iran Iraq conflict this was war not jihad why didnt Ayatollah Khomeini call for jihad because it wasnt justified to be jihad it was an attack by an aggressor . and was politically motivated attack. we were not being attacked for anything other than territorial or financial gain i wish you could convince all other Muslims in the world of this, we might even start to get somewhere. I would have the same problem reaching some of the muslim crack pots as everyone else this ISIS would love to get their hands on me LOL Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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