Another Plummer

[MR PLUMMER 130]

sorry double post

 

 

WM

Edited December 21, 2015 by MR PLUMMER

[MOLE265 792]

 

MR PLUMMER

Today, 01:58 AM

 

We're I see things still going wrong with plummers is the selling, giving away, re homing of FAILED, unwanted adults..

 

The above should be put to sleep.

 

These words may seem harsh.but it's the only way to take the breed forward.

 

Some workers have been rehomed on the basis of back breeding - yes their pedigree - I had a cracking bitch sent here because she didnt fit into breeding plans - she was great mooching, bushing and had to be held back from entering as she was unproven and its not my sport now - dogs are often sold on from pet homes unvetted - I have even seen five year old dogs advertised for 350 and another 10 yr old bitch - yes TEN YEAR OLD for 350 to a 'good' home only - the breed is so inbred now that anything without a pedigree is not only worthless but a potential life long vet bill - worker to worker stuff can only be more so - yet the prices are insane - and bar a very few breeders I know are willing to outcross to olde lines or even another breed - there are lines in Ireland apparently all working above and below - no one in England is interested.

 

The organised clubs and societies have been the ruination of what would of been a handy little terrier and also the reason I have always bred from the sire or bitch I require to fit my own "jigsaw",outcrossing to the right dog brings many benefits into a breed and has to be done with careful consideration as you not only import the "good" genes you're after but any "bad" ones as well,I once bred a bitch to 5 different stud dogs in her lifetime to finally achieve the desired progeny,the biggest setback to this breed was the influx of "bull blood",a good red patt or fell terrier with a nice short tight coat would of retained the digging qualities as well as improving its physical stature, since 1979 I have bred every type of cross from a plummer,I've crossed them with russells,patts,fells,etc just for hard digging and some litters were worked very hard on all quarry,95% of the Plummers being bred by women and city folk from the respective clubs only see a field when attending a show and thats where the problems lie,they speak down to anyone whose terriers aren't registered with an arrogant air that gains them no friends in the real world, when I knew Plummer he crossed anything into his dogs if he thought it would bring a positive outcome and I've always done the same, the people who took charge when Brian had his first big illness have done more to set the breed back than anyone and most could not agree on the colour of sh*te,

HGN,you could not wait to get into bed with the very clubs you are now knocking,in your very short time associating with Plummers you have rubbed shoulders with the men and women that could make the difference to the majority of the health problems in the recognised clubs,making any changes in the P.T.A. or the E.P.T.S will never happen whilst the same old people are in charge, the P.T.C.G.B were trying hard to make a difference a year or 2 ago but whilst everything they do remains in a tight "clique" the appeal of this little terrier will always suffer,especially amongst ordinary terrier men,a good press officer is whats required to make a difference,someone that will keep everyone informed not just a tight group, I know this won't happen though because one club is always watching what the other says and they all seem to have different ideas as to what constitutes a working terrier,you though are lucky enough to be able to start again being in Ireland,its your chance to run a clean line without the over influence from the said clubs, I had a lot of calls for pups from Ireland so there is a call for decent clean stock. I don't understand your above post in any way at all and consider it so far from the truth thats its laughable,I can only think you were pissed when you wrote it,I breed worker/worker and have never produced either a fault or any unhealthy pups,the only time my vet sees me is to dock and dew claw a litter,on a closing note may I say that the clubs are only that and have no power or influence unless done so by its members,anyone can start a club and call it what they like,fancy club names are just that and have no recognition by either the K.C or anyone else for that matter,these things are only about control and power,WM

[Cargol 302]

For years now the lads that have plummers have been talking about putting a good black dog or lakie back into the breed to produce digging dogs. And I know some have done it with good results.

But why bother? There are alot of very good lines of black dogs that are bred to be dug to. And there is still shit comes out of those lines from time to time.

So I guess my point is why take the chance. If you want a digging dog then get a black dog or a well bred Russell.

Genuine question.

Is it just because you like the plummer so much but you would like to produce them with more bottle?

[Onlyworkmatters 1,584]

a good press officer is whats required to make a difference,WM

 

No mate what's required is a group of honest lads with only the working abilities of the breed at heart, work them hard cull hard and in years to come they might be getting somewhere

[MR PLUMMER 130]

 

WM

Edited December 24, 2015 by MR PLUMMER

[MR PLUMMER 130]

 

a good press officer is whats required to make a difference,WM

 

No mate what's required is a group of honest lads with only the working abilities of the breed at heart, work them hard cull hard and in years to come they might be getting somewhere

 

I put that exact reply to Scott Robson,HGN ,Mash and Gareth 2 yrs ago when they took over from Tim at the P.T,C.G.B. I asked to set up a breeding committee of like minded lads that could forward the Plummer in both health and steady digging stock,it was put forward Scott told me and was met by "no interest" and he put it to the P.T.A. also with the same result,the answer being that there were not enough members who dig to them,for me I think anybody showing any signs of knowledge is seen as a threat and quickly pushed out and as I cannot suffer fools it was probably better I had no involvement with them,it would of all ended badly,until this path of action happens though they will always be seen as a ratting dog for posh people,WM

[HGN 150]

the biggest setback to this breed was the influx of "bull blood"

tried to obtain a decent Plummer digging bitch but was met by a wall of both unhelpful people and dogs with no capacity for work,it was to be a long time before I procured (through a third party) a bitch from the new blood outcross programme,as she was white bodied and unable to be registered by the clubs,she also carried a high percentage of bull blood, after checking her paperwork and chip she was exactly what I required, I used her as the matriarch in the formation of my line

 

 

so either it was or it wasn't the worst thing or not? The bitch was registered with the PTCGB as you know - you have the paperwork?

 

HGN,you could not wait to get into bed with the very clubs you are now knocking,in your very short time associating with Plummers you have rubbed shoulders with the men and women that could make the difference to the majority of the health problems in the recognised clubs

 

I am not knocking the PTCGB as you know it was Gareth and I who tried hard to change things and yes we failed unfortunately

 

 

you though are lucky enough to be able to start again being in Ireland,its your chance to run a clean line without the over influence from the said clubs, I had a lot of calls for pups from Ireland so there is a call for decent clean stock.

 

We do and its beginning, I am sure you have had calls in fact I am in no doubt as I have sent people your way - Sam being the last but it appears you are reticent to send your stock this way.

 

I can only think you were pissed when you wrote it

 

Wind your neck in.

 

 

I put that exact reply to Scott Robson,HGN ,Mash and Gareth 2 yrs ago when they took over from Tim at the P.T,C.G.B.

 

No you did not and this never happened despite you saying this a few times now - Scott was never part of the PTCGB and Mash only last year became involved - you never approached Gareth or I nor did Scott approach us on your behalf.

 

Sorry to burst your bubble on this.

 

 

until this path of action happens though they will always be seen as a ratting dog for posh people,WM

 

I have to agree when folk are selling litters of pups for £350 a pup and wont gift to working homes even digging

 

 

 

As I see it there is a lot of bullshit around the Plummer breed with folk declaring they knew Plummer and who slated him week to week in the Countrymans weekly only to be found out as liars and more and change their pseudonyms on here and begin the run around again.

 

I have seen folk on this thread who have sold pups on to agility homes - one was featured in a yearbook last year - there are claims of no faults etc but who knows.

 

It would be good to see more working homes but the fact is the avenue for work on the mainland is closing down with the apathy of the working terrier man to do anything about it - black dogs are steady to below and as Cargol said if that's what you want to do - why would you give 350 to a random chap for a Plummer when a well bred blackdog pup with known breeding and work lines is available for the same or less?

 

There is room and plenty of it for the Plummer terrier as a bushing dog, ratting and general moocher - some well entered will do well below.

 

Happy Christmas

 

 

[pablo esc 1,598]

Could some of you give us reflection on the breed, I remember or am I mistaken plummer writing in the nineties in the cw, about breeding his own terrier, beagle for nose, Russell of some stock, etc,. Didn't know a plummer terrier existed before then. Then the a parcel every where, obviously manufactured breed, fame,etc

[HGN 150]

Could some of you give us reflection on the breed, I remember or am I mistaken plummer writing in the nineties in the cw, about breeding his own terrier, beagle for nose, Russell of some stock, etc,. Didn't know a plummer terrier existed before then.

 

The Breed... History

The Plummer Terrier created by Dr. David Brian Plummer was conceived through the mixture of Jack Russell terrier, Fell terrier, Bull terrier and Beagle blood. Aptly named after their creator - the Plummer terrier was realised in the 1960 s and has been bred true to type for over twenty years.

In the late 1960s and throughout the 1970s, Brian Plummer worked as a somewhat reluctant teacher of several schools throughout south Yorkshire and the Midlands. A self confessed rustic eccentric and seemingly frustrated academic, Brian's passion was hunting rats with what was then his motley pack of Russell type terriers. On settling in the Midlands, living in a run down cottage in the countryside surrounding Lichfield, he continued teaching and in his spare time hunted rats relentlessly as well as engaging his dogs to rabbit and earth quarry.

Brian Plummer continued his passion and soon was established as a leading author of books on hunting with lurchers and terriers. Well versed in the science of genetics, he strove to produce a unique strain of terrier using the aforementioned bloodlines with Jack Russell terriers from Sealy Cottage lines as his foundation. These terriers were worked hard and as the breed developed so too did Brian Plummers reputation as a breeder of hardy terriers that bred true to type.

During this frenetic period of Brian's life the Plummer terrier continued to flourish. The now legendary dogs of this time consisted of Vampire, who died in 1980 aged nine, this Plummer terrier was a veteran of the weekly rat hunts at the local battery hen farm. His brother Warlock, sister Beltane (who Brian regarded as the "matron" of his terrier team and indeed the prototype of the breed) and probably most famous Omega, bred by her sire Vampire to his own daughter Janey. Brian dedicated a whole book to the hunting abilities of Omega. All of these terriers showed the characteristic looks of what we now regard as Plummer terriers.

The Beagle introduced to Plummer’s lines in the 1960s was out of Catherine Sutton’s Rossut show-bred strain that originated from USA imports brought to the UK to tidy up British exhibits. It was owned by Philip Ainsley, a fellow teacher friend of Brian's.

Further outcrosses were introduced along the way. The addition of Fell terrier blood, Jaeger from Nigel Hinchcliffe's lines and Flint from Brian Nuttall's lines, both noted working lines and most likely descending from Cyril Breay's and Frank Buck’s stock, infused refinement of shape and to a certain extent contributed to fixing type, like that seen in Pagan, a black and tan terrier, acknowledged as one of the early pillars of the breed.

Further additions included a Jack Russell terrier known as Eric Forsyth's Pip, Alan Thomas's Hamish and Laddie from the Chiddingfold and Leconfield foxhound kennels. It must be noted that performance as an earth dog was and is an expected prerequisite of most if not all terrier breeds and Plummers are no exception to this rule. These three dogs were known to be full on earth workers.

In the early 1980s during one of the many TV documentaries (Rat hunting man and Lone furrow) about Brian Plummer and his terriers he said that one day he would like his terriers to be known as Plummer terriers and recognised by the Kennel Club. In 1985 he suffered a near fatal heart attack which resulted in the dispersal of his substantial pack of terriers to trusted friends.

He eventually moved to a remote croft in Caithness in Scotland and began to write full time. His terriers were ultimately spread far and wide but a few dedicated individuals ensured Brian's legacy continued. By the early 1990s most of the packs important gene pool was found and regrouped, albeit on a smaller scale. Work continued and other lines were sort widening the gene pool enough to be able to limit inbreeding.

At this point it has to be said that two distinct types began to develop, the smaller more snipey nosed form and the more bully stronger headed type. At this point Brian opted for the latter, and by the late nineties he decided that the breed needed a wider gene pool in order to reach its maximum potential and Bull Terrier blood of known ancestry was sought and outcrossed into the breed.

Brian Plummer sadly passed away in the September of 2002 after a long hard struggle with cancer. Needless to say, those working with him continued as planned and after time realised the success they and he desired. Today's Plummer Terrier is better than ever, many of the attributes laid out in the breed standard still intact, positively evolving and looking forward to the future.

There are two main clubs charged with the breed’s interests today – the Plummer Terrier Club of Great Britain (PTCGB) and the Plummer Terrier Association (PTA). Their contact details are available on their websites:www.plummerterrier.com and www.plummerterrierassociation.com and both clubs are on Facebook.

[HGN 150]

Would that be that prick the horn blower by any chance HGN.If so the most dishonest full of shit man iv,e yet to meet,would like to say more but i'll save that for a rainy day.

 

Yes Keith the same chap

[MR PLUMMER 130]

Then it seems from your reply there are many 2 headed liar's at the P.T.C.G.B. my offer was made genuinely to help what I thought were half decent lads,in all my dealings with all the clubs I have only met a small handful that are as good as their word and that is why I would never repeat this offer, I have bred every type of terrier with good results so its the breeds loss not mine.

Plummer himself was a cock and meeting him was never a pleasant experience but his dogs were going along the right lines to be half decent until falling ill and having the future breeding hijacked by rank amateurs with no real experience other than ratting,they actually drove the only decent lad out in "Curtis Price",at least he was trying to produce digging dogs and the "Plummer bible" was written for him as a guide,the breed standard suffered as a consequence.I would ask that you don't pass my number on again as I have no interest in sending 8 week old puppies to Ireland, there is a demand for them always in this country and I have never kept one past 8 weeks unless I was keeping it myself,there are always more calls than pups.

I was rejoined on here by a mate as my wirralman account was closed by myself 3 month ago,he chose MR PLUMMER as he thought it was funny but after all my posts they ended in WM,no pseudonym,just me and no attempt at hiding who I am in case that dig was at me.

Where our pups end up is always beyond our control and they will always end up in the strangest homes,I sold a pup to a family locally to me 2yrs ago that has turned up lately in middlesborough,if working dogs do not get walked enough or given plenty of work they will destroy homes etc,so even being careful they can still end up in the most unlikely home.

HGN,we have not had much contact as late so can you tell me who has what job on the varied clubs,especially the P.T.C.G.B. then at least I will know who I am slating,WM (WirralMan)

[foxbolter 447]

How does the colour stay brown and white with the beagle in the mix you think you would get all sorts just a honest question

[MR PLUMMER 130]

How does the colour stay brown and white with the beagle in the mix you think you would get all sorts just a honest question

Selective breeding to a colour is not hard,the hardest part of breeding any terrier is having a small,spannable terrier that has good head size,that is the "holy grail" WM

[foxbolter 447]

Would you find a different colour pup in some litters like black and white

[pablo esc 1,598]

Very well put hgn, I was told plummer was a clever man, and a school teacher in which some may I add would ring a different bell, and being nothing to do with hunting but, a school teacher, discipline or very clever. As for the breeding in to a Nuttal terrier, I read it once in his breeding program. Never heard Nuttal say he used anything or any claim