If God Made Everything, Who Made Him ?

[Born Hunter 17,656]

As little as I know Seeker, I know that science can not and does not explain everything to date. I believe that one day it will though.

 

The problem is that people involve their emotions in these things and let their pride get in the way of reality. More people need to say "We don't yet know...".

 

In the pursuit of truth, you HAVE to be objective. Emotion and pride has no place in science.

[The Seeker 3,048]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Iit's easy to knock and ridicule because the alternative is to become un-cool so it's much easier not to really question what is taught. As a young lad I was the same.

Wonder how many will mock before departing this planet.

Said it before there are no atheists on a burning aeroplane.

That's all I have to say on this post as it's becoming tedious now.

Praying to god in the face of death is a sign of desperation that many of us may experience, doesn't necessarily mean enlightenment......I'm more interested in the atrocities committed by the religious.....whether it's child rape or all out war, what do their prayers consist of then? Catholics, Muslims, Christians, Jews etc etc.....just seems like a facade to me, a 'get out of jail card'.....

Sorry, I don't buy the first part. I've been in harms way more times than I can even remember. I don't call on God out of desperation. I call because I know what he can do for me.

 

For the crimes, wars, and all the rest. That is human beings doing what human beings do. If you do evil you are not all that religious are you?

 

ATB

Tell that to the Vatican.....

Accip, that's weaker than no comment at all.

Really???......The Vatican...a place where corruption is endemic & many of its residents have a penchant for child sodomy & you say there not 'all that' religious there?

But hey, I'm not singling out Catholics here, that's just one example.......whether it's a jihadist about to blow up a shopping centre full of innocent folk or a catholic priest who's just raped a child, both would appear EXTREMELY religious to me, but the decent folk, probably like yourself, who have a similar faith choose to bury their heads in the sand & ignore it.

So it's only decent folk that are 'really' religious?

It's been suggested on here before, that we used to live as a society in a golden era of 'good Christian values', but so far I've failed to find this 'golden' time in recent history, where there was no child sodomy, rape, murder, robbery, extortion, human neglect, racism, political corruption etc etc etc etc...........

A family member of mine, in the late 1940's as a 6 year old, was sexually abused by a family friend, he apparently had good 'Christian values', a regular church attendee, but I guess he wasn't 'all that' religious either, right? Then as a teenager she was raped by an irish soldier, just a guess here, but I bet he'd had a fair dose of god fearing shite shoved down his throat from an early age as well, or maybe not?

Maybe this wasn't during the golden era of 'good Christian' values' either? Maybe someone can enlighten me?

From where I'm standing I can see plenty of decent religious folk, doing decent things, but evil is committed by folk with a faith just as strong, some say fanatical.......all under the facade of religion, the good folk just don't want to see it.

Don't talk to me about weak pal, I'm not the one going through life with a 'comfort blanket'. ATb

Its terrible if you or your relative have suffered child abuse, it's not excuseble in any circumstance. You do however want to focus on crimes such as these as a reason for being against religion and in this instance Christianity.

I'm not going to deny these things have not occurred within different religions however this is not a fault of Christianity this is a fault of man. That generalisation is rediculas and is as ludicras to suggest you don't like the NHS because Harold Shipman or Beverly Allitt were part of it.

If you have an opinion why you don't have faith then that's fine however to focus on this point is a bit ignorant to be honest.

Funny that....it seems to be the 'running theme' in the Muslim threads, focusing on crimes committed by Muslims, I'm sure you've commented on you're experience with Muslims, although valid criticism I'm sure, have you experienced all of them mate?

I'm not dismissing the whole of Christianity because of the wrongs of perhaps a minority, my point was in answer to Micky Finns claim....that religious folk that are guilty of evil acts (no matter what faith to me) are some how not as religious as you believers that are decent.......I don't care whether you are Muslim, Christian or Jew that is utter bullshite!

Edited to say my posts have gone off on a tangent & my ramblings have nothing to do with the op lol.....so I apologise

Yes I have commented on muslims in the past and I actually typed and erased some comments on my post because I was conscious that I didnt want the topic to go down that route.

I am against the Islamic faith because it views non muslims as no better than animals and is not accepting of any one who is not muslim. Their moral compass is a man who married a 6 year old girl. Mine is a man who did nothing but good and tried to bring peace an love to mankind and died on the cross whilst doing so.

 

I wil not reply to any other posts regarding muslims on this post as I do not wish for this to become an muslim thread..

[The Seeker 3,048]

 

In the pursuit of truth, you HAVE to be objective. Emotion and pride has no place in science.

Agreed but in the pursuit of truth you must also have faith.....

 

Two fleas arguing on the back of a dog about the genetic make up and atoms that go to make up the dog, They are different in that one believes there is something else other than the dog the other doesn't or won't because science can't prove it.

 

I'm more a flea who says forget the dog, where does the dog come form.

 

ATB

[Born Hunter 17,656]

A little thought on faith;

 

Faith is belief in the absence of proof, right? But it's a mistake to think all faith is equal. It varies with evidence, between complete faith in a statement that has zero supporting evidence to approaching no faith for a statement that has so much supporting evidence that it's as close to being 100% proven as possible with all other possibilities impossible. The more evidence a claim gathers the less faith is required to believe it and the more trust you have in it. You could consider trust the inverse of faith, as one diminishes the other grows with neither extreme possible in reality.

 

Religious folk say their faith increases as god shows himself to them but I'd say that's a slightly different definition of the word to what a scientist would use, so I don't want to get this confused. I'm not saying anybody is wrong, just lets not get confused on this. When a scientist talks of faith and when a theist talks of faith we are talking about slightly different things.

 

But have no doubt, scientists have faith in their beliefs! Only difference is that scientists don't like faith, they want to replace it with trust! They/we want to have so much evidence in support of our beliefs that they require NO faith. That is the pursuit of truth. Truth should not require faith and science trys to rid us of faith with incontrovertible evidence of the truth. Unfortunately the reality is that 100% proof of anything is impossible, we can only reduce the probability of another answer to being so small as to be effectively zero and therefore impossible, but nonetheless not truly impossible.

 

I'll finish on this thought;

 

It requires a degree of faith to believe a statement that says a car that you cannot see is red in colour..... that faith diminishes to near zero if you can see the car for yourself and the observation is backed up independently by other observers. You now trust the statement implicitly through vastly substantial supporting evidence. And yet is it impossible that it's actually another colour?.... So now, what exactly is 100% proof.... and therefore can we ever really rid ourselves of faith in any given belief....

Edited March 12, 2015 by Born Hunter

[Accip74 7,112]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Iit's easy to knock and ridicule because the alternative is to become un-cool so it's much easier not to really question what is taught. As a young lad I was the same.

Wonder how many will mock before departing this planet.

Said it before there are no atheists on a burning aeroplane.

That's all I have to say on this post as it's becoming tedious now.

Praying to god in the face of death is a sign of desperation that many of us may experience, doesn't necessarily mean enlightenment......I'm more interested in the atrocities committed by the religious.....whether it's child rape or all out war, what do their prayers consist of then? Catholics, Muslims, Christians, Jews etc etc.....just seems like a facade to me, a 'get out of jail card'.....

Sorry, I don't buy the first part. I've been in harms way more times than I can even remember. I don't call on God out of desperation. I call because I know what he can do for me.

 

For the crimes, wars, and all the rest. That is human beings doing what human beings do. If you do evil you are not all that religious are you?

 

ATB

Tell that to the Vatican.....

Accip, that's weaker than no comment at all.

Really???......The Vatican...a place where corruption is endemic & many of its residents have a penchant for child sodomy & you say there not 'all that' religious there?

But hey, I'm not singling out Catholics here, that's just one example.......whether it's a jihadist about to blow up a shopping centre full of innocent folk or a catholic priest who's just raped a child, both would appear EXTREMELY religious to me, but the decent folk, probably like yourself, who have a similar faith choose to bury their heads in the sand & ignore it.

So it's only decent folk that are 'really' religious?

It's been suggested on here before, that we used to live as a society in a golden era of 'good Christian values', but so far I've failed to find this 'golden' time in recent history, where there was no child sodomy, rape, murder, robbery, extortion, human neglect, racism, political corruption etc etc etc etc...........

A family member of mine, in the late 1940's as a 6 year old, was sexually abused by a family friend, he apparently had good 'Christian values', a regular church attendee, but I guess he wasn't 'all that' religious either, right? Then as a teenager she was raped by an irish soldier, just a guess here, but I bet he'd had a fair dose of god fearing shite shoved down his throat from an early age as well, or maybe not?

Maybe this wasn't during the golden era of 'good Christian' values' either? Maybe someone can enlighten me?

From where I'm standing I can see plenty of decent religious folk, doing decent things, but evil is committed by folk with a faith just as strong, some say fanatical.......all under the facade of religion, the good folk just don't want to see it.

Don't talk to me about weak pal, I'm not the one going through life with a 'comfort blanket'. ATb

Its terrible if you or your relative have suffered child abuse, it's not excuseble in any circumstance. You do however want to focus on crimes such as these as a reason for being against religion and in this instance Christianity.

I'm not going to deny these things have not occurred within different religions however this is not a fault of Christianity this is a fault of man. That generalisation is rediculas and is as ludicras to suggest you don't like the NHS because Harold Shipman or Beverly Allitt were part of it.

If you have an opinion why you don't have faith then that's fine however to focus on this point is a bit ignorant to be honest.

Funny that....it seems to be the 'running theme' in the Muslim threads, focusing on crimes committed by Muslims, I'm sure you've commented on you're experience with Muslims, although valid criticism I'm sure, have you experienced all of them mate?

I'm not dismissing the whole of Christianity because of the wrongs of perhaps a minority, my point was in answer to Micky Finns claim....that religious folk that are guilty of evil acts (no matter what faith to me) are some how not as religious as you believers that are decent.......I don't care whether you are Muslim, Christian or Jew that is utter bullshite!

Edited to say my posts have gone off on a tangent & my ramblings have nothing to do with the op lol.....so I apologise

Yes I have commented on muslims in the past and I actually typed and erased some comments on my post because I was conscious that I didnt want the topic to go down that route.

I am against the Islamic faith because it views non muslims as no better than animals and is not accepting of any one who is not muslim. Their moral compass is a man who married a 6 year old girl. Mine is a man who did nothing but good and tried to bring peace an love to mankind and died on the cross whilst doing so.

I wil not reply to any other posts regarding muslims on this post as I do not wish for this to become an muslim thread..

Where there's religion, hypocrisy is never far away........Atb & enjoy your faith!

[Born Hunter 17,656]

 

 

In the pursuit of truth, you HAVE to be objective. Emotion and pride has no place in science.

Agreed but in the pursuit of truth you must also have faith.....

 

Two fleas arguing on the back of a dog about the genetic make up and atoms that go to make up the dog, They are different in that one believes there is something else other than the dog the other doesn't or won't because science can't prove it.

 

I'm more a flea who says forget the dog, where does the dog come form.

 

ATB

 

 

Yet! Have faith! LOL. In time you won't need it because you will have the truth. Even if that truth does turn out to be divine in its nature.

[gnasher16 29,791]

 

 

I like that and found it interesting (told you I love science) One thing that screams out at me when I read it is scientists have about as much of a clue about the beginning of existence than any religion I have ever known.

 

To me whatever way you dress it up its a faith just the same as mine.

 

The point I'm trying to make is I dont think we are all that! Science can be arrogant, it knows a little and thinks it knows enough to ridicule someone who believes in a creator. BH this isn't a dig at you mate I know you don't mock but the community of many scientists. I watched the Kent Horvind video when he was up against 3 professors, he asked some very clear and valid questions and the replies were almost like how dare you question us we haven't got the answers but we know best because we are scientists.

 

I will say one thing at least the faith of science attempts to come up with answers just as Christians do, the ones I feel sorry for are the ones who mock it without a clue because they watched some comic do a sketch and need to feel part of a "cool" pack. I know because several years ago I used to be one of them

 

If i'd had a better education........thats exactly what i would of written .

 

Its the whole point im always trying to make about these prats who jump on the bandwagon of bashing Christianity simply because its " cool " to do so.....the fact that these cool people are in such a minority worldwide always struck me as the ultimate in arrogance to be able to take the piss out of the majority !

[The Seeker 3,048]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Iit's easy to knock and ridicule because the alternative is to become un-cool so it's much easier not to really question what is taught. As a young lad I was the same.

Wonder how many will mock before departing this planet.

Said it before there are no atheists on a burning aeroplane.

That's all I have to say on this post as it's becoming tedious now.

Praying to god in the face of death is a sign of desperation that many of us may experience, doesn't necessarily mean enlightenment......I'm more interested in the atrocities committed by the religious.....whether it's child rape or all out war, what do their prayers consist of then? Catholics, Muslims, Christians, Jews etc etc.....just seems like a facade to me, a 'get out of jail card'.....

Sorry, I don't buy the first part. I've been in harms way more times than I can even remember. I don't call on God out of desperation. I call because I know what he can do for me.

 

For the crimes, wars, and all the rest. That is human beings doing what human beings do. If you do evil you are not all that religious are you?

 

ATB

Tell that to the Vatican.....

Accip, that's weaker than no comment at all.

Really???......The Vatican...a place where corruption is endemic & many of its residents have a penchant for child sodomy & you say there not 'all that' religious there?

But hey, I'm not singling out Catholics here, that's just one example.......whether it's a jihadist about to blow up a shopping centre full of innocent folk or a catholic priest who's just raped a child, both would appear EXTREMELY religious to me, but the decent folk, probably like yourself, who have a similar faith choose to bury their heads in the sand & ignore it.

So it's only decent folk that are 'really' religious?

It's been suggested on here before, that we used to live as a society in a golden era of 'good Christian values', but so far I've failed to find this 'golden' time in recent history, where there was no child sodomy, rape, murder, robbery, extortion, human neglect, racism, political corruption etc etc etc etc...........

A family member of mine, in the late 1940's as a 6 year old, was sexually abused by a family friend, he apparently had good 'Christian values', a regular church attendee, but I guess he wasn't 'all that' religious either, right? Then as a teenager she was raped by an irish soldier, just a guess here, but I bet he'd had a fair dose of god fearing shite shoved down his throat from an early age as well, or maybe not?

Maybe this wasn't during the golden era of 'good Christian' values' either? Maybe someone can enlighten me?

From where I'm standing I can see plenty of decent religious folk, doing decent things, but evil is committed by folk with a faith just as strong, some say fanatical.......all under the facade of religion, the good folk just don't want to see it.

Don't talk to me about weak pal, I'm not the one going through life with a 'comfort blanket'. ATb

Its terrible if you or your relative have suffered child abuse, it's not excuseble in any circumstance. You do however want to focus on crimes such as these as a reason for being against religion and in this instance Christianity.

I'm not going to deny these things have not occurred within different religions however this is not a fault of Christianity this is a fault of man. That generalisation is rediculas and is as ludicras to suggest you don't like the NHS because Harold Shipman or Beverly Allitt were part of it.

If you have an opinion why you don't have faith then that's fine however to focus on this point is a bit ignorant to be honest.

Funny that....it seems to be the 'running theme' in the Muslim threads, focusing on crimes committed by Muslims, I'm sure you've commented on you're experience with Muslims, although valid criticism I'm sure, have you experienced all of them mate?

I'm not dismissing the whole of Christianity because of the wrongs of perhaps a minority, my point was in answer to Micky Finns claim....that religious folk that are guilty of evil acts (no matter what faith to me) are some how not as religious as you believers that are decent.......I don't care whether you are Muslim, Christian or Jew that is utter bullshite!

Edited to say my posts have gone off on a tangent & my ramblings have nothing to do with the op lol.....so I apologise

Yes I have commented on muslims in the past and I actually typed and erased some comments on my post because I was conscious that I didnt want the topic to go down that route.

I am against the Islamic faith because it views non muslims as no better than animals and is not accepting of any one who is not muslim. Their moral compass is a man who married a 6 year old girl. Mine is a man who did nothing but good and tried to bring peace an love to mankind and died on the cross whilst doing so.

I wil not reply to any other posts regarding muslims on this post as I do not wish for this to become an muslim thread..

Where there's religion, hypocrisy is never far away........Atb & enjoy your faith!

You too fella, ignorance is bliss.

[gnasher16 29,791]

A little thought on faith;

 

Faith is belief in the absence of proof, right? But it's a mistake to think all faith is equal. It varies with evidence, between complete faith in a statement that has zero supporting evidence to approaching no faith for a statement that has so much supporting evidence that it's as close to being 100% proven as possible with all other possibilities impossible. The more evidence a claim gathers the less faith is required to believe it and the more trust you have in it. You could consider trust the inverse of faith, as one diminishes the other grows with neither extreme possible in reality.

 

Religious folk say their faith increases as god shows himself to them but I'd say that's a slightly different definition of the word to what a scientist would use, so I don't want to get this confused. I'm not saying anybody is wrong, just lets not get confused on this. When a scientist talks of faith and when a theist talks of faith we are talking about slightly different things.

 

But have no doubt, scientists have faith in their beliefs! Only difference is that scientists don't like faith, they want to replace it with trust! They/we want to have so much evidence in support of our beliefs that they require NO faith. That is the pursuit of truth. Truth should not require faith and science trys to rid us of faith with incontrovertible evidence of the truth. Unfortunately the reality is that 100% proof of anything is impossible, we can only reduce the probability of another answer to being so small as to be effectively zero and therefore impossible, but nonetheless not truly impossible.

 

I'll finish on this thought;

 

It requires a degree of faith to believe a statement that says a car that you cannot see is red in colour..... that faith diminishes to near zero if you can see the car for yourself and the observation is backed up independently by other observers. You now trust the statement implicitly through vastly substantial supporting evidence. And yet is it impossible that it's actually another colour?.... So now, what exactly is 100% proof.... and therefore can we ever really rid ourselves of faith in any given belief....

Id be perfectly happy to sit and listen to Bornhunter and Seeker talk this out with no intervention from anyone else i think yous both add some blinding input to debates of this nature in common sense easy to understand logic even dopes like me can understand.................i know yous dont put your thoughts down for anyone elses benefit but of benefit it is so much obliged and all that ......hope that dont sound too creepy but sometimes you just gotta hold your hands up and say theres a time to speak and a time to listen

[stop.end 4,079]

science is only as good as the ones funding them!

and only find the answers the ones funding them want!

And yes the big bang theory is just a pile of shite.... but gets great funding....

science is that much of a joke these days the had to get a supposed rock star like brian cox to try make it interesting,,,,

 

[jacknife 2,005]

Who thinks it cool???

 

Its just a bit of piss taking out of those that believe in god or aliens or the big bang theory

 

There is no proof for any of it

[mackay 3,080]

So, do all believers go to heaven?.

Do different religious believers go different heavens?.

Is there only one true religion and a lot of other religious believers barking up the wrong tree?.

When two armies are facing each other and both being told god is on our side, whose side is he on?.

[Accip74 7,112]

 

I like that and found it interesting (told you I love science) One thing that screams out at me when I read it is scientists have about as much of a clue about the beginning of existence than any religion I have ever known.

To me whatever way you dress it up its a faith just the same as mine.

The point I'm trying to make is I dont think we are all that! Science can be arrogant, it knows a little and thinks it knows enough to ridicule someone who believes in a creator. BH this isn't a dig at you mate I know you don't mock but the community of many scientists. I watched the Kent Horvind video when he was up against 3 professors, he asked some very clear and valid questions and the replies were almost like how dare you question us we haven't got the answers but we know best because we are scientists.

I will say one thing at least the faith of science attempts to come up with answers just as Christians do, the ones I feel sorry for are the ones who mock it without a clue because they watched some comic do a sketch and need to feel part of a "cool" pack. I know because several years ago I used to be one of them

 

If i'd had a better education........thats exactly what i would of written .

 

Its the whole point im always trying to make about these prats who jump on the bandwagon of bashing Christianity simply because its " cool " to do so.....the fact that these cool people are in such a minority worldwide always struck me as the ultimate in arrogance to be able to take the piss out of the majority !

I don't get this reference of 'cool'......I don't consider myself 'cool' because I'm a non-believer or believers as un-cool, for me 'cool' is Marvin Gaye's album 'What's Going On' I love that record with a passion & there's plenty of Christianity within it!

I made my mind up at a very young age after religious teachings at school, to be a non-believer , it just seemed like common sense to me, other peoples thoughts or 'cool' never came into it......

 

Don't generalise all us non-believers! :-)

[Born Hunter 17,656]

Well errrmmm speak for yourself!

 

I think I'm cool as f**k!

 

Just have a problem convincing women of that.....

[Accip74 7,112]

Well errrmmm speak for yourself!

 

I think I'm cool as f**k!

 

Just have a problem convincing women of that.....

Well don't let them see your posts on here then! Lol