Added Bull/staff Blood

[p3d 879]

The two dogs in the photograph above are Bull terriers and nothing else,,, Hinks' Bull terriers came in all sizes , read any old book on bull terriers and it will show his early dogs ware all smallish,,,, the stuffed dogs are modern Bull terriers ,,,with errect ears ,, after Cropping was banned..

 

Usually the written word and photographs are all we can base our opinions on for early strains, none of us were around in 1870.

Hinks early dogs may have been smaller before 1860's but the dog that he made popular was larger.

 

Hinks "Tarquin" 1860's (Cropped ears)

 

"Tarquin" to me looks like a dog that weighs a bit more than 20 to 25 lbs.

Hinks promoted his strain as Domed headed (no stop), pure white fighting dogs.

Not sure they ever competed for anything except rosettes in the show ring.

 

He was not the only person breeding Bull / terriers back then.

Where they called Cheshire terriers, Pit terriers, who knows for sure.

There were probably many different strains.

 

These stuffed dogs are Bull / terriers. Not sure how they would be considered modern 114 years later.

There were a lot of Bull / terriers around then and now.

But these were considered good samples of Bull terriers at that time.

They might be considered an EBT type now.

The TRING museum collector was not short of the resources (time and money) to collect over breeds of dogs.

 

If these type of Bull / terriers were around in 1900 at 20 lbs on the scales.

It is easy to see where the bull blood could be introduced into a terrier line.

The Brindle coloring might even appear in the litters?

[Carlovian 583]

Dogs of yore - a virtual tour through Bull Terrier past.html

 

Bull Terrier back then came all sizes ,,,just Google James Hinks ..or history of Bull terrier...

The stuffed dog in the earlier photo are Bull terriers,,,

Edited April 12, 2014 by Carlovian

[Carlovian 583]

 

20lbs Bull terrier ,,at trials back in 1970s...

 

 

Similar in type to the two stuffed dogs...

[Jack Daniels 33]

no harm men but i dont think any of them bulls weigh 20lb!! i have terriers here in my yard are around 20lb weight and they look nowhere near as heavy as them pics just posted.... i was in company not so long ago about 2 months back... fella was able to show me a full EBT bitch....a blue/brindle bitch...she was around 17 inches to tts but she still weighd 25-27.... working weight..... and not the lamb shaped type getting paraded about today.....ill try get a pic of her.... she like the original bull as far as i could see....very athletic, not the big wide barrelled chest and good straight legs.... but she ate every wooden box or terrier box when put in the boot.... but thats no fault of the bitches....just bad rearing as a pup!

[p3d 879]

Carlovian,

Do you think these 20lb Bull terriers were bred into the early white dogs?

That 20lb brindle coloured dog in 1970, was that considered a miniture english bull terrier?

 

That was the question of the original topic.

There were also miniture staffs around in the 1980's.

From memory they became a sort of mascot in the skinhead culture.

I will dig out some photos of these.

 

If miniture staff or miniture English bull was used in terrier lines

the attributes would show through the same way.

 

If we use our eyes we will see these attributes.

Domed head, small eyes, prick ears from the EBT.

The Staff broad head and ear carraige.

 

If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck

Its probably a duck.

 

Amazes me the number of men who say there is no bull

In that line of terriers when the attributes are there in front of them!

[dixiefried 269]

hinks bred white terriers like the Earl of Waldgraves E,Mondy 1800s painted the type ,and crossed them with Bulldog types like Jimmy Shaws Jacko ..Frederick Hall 1800s painted this type.. so I believe The White Terrier and Bulldog /Ebt type mixed ,but also went their different paths into Todays Terriers,some giving the obvious Bull blood look .other more of the Rangey Fell Type ...

[Mouser 18]

Bull terriers of today are a lot different looking today then say 130 yrs ago. I dug out one of my books last night, "the complete history if fighting dogs" by Mike Homan. It's a very informative book. There's a good section on Hink's dogs with pics starting in 1860s to more present times. The original dogs had a slight stop with a nice long muzzle. They ranged from as small as 8 lbs. to some of the behemoths that I've seen weighing in the 90s. I'm not sure when a crazy down turned snout came in, but it looks as if it is getting more and more extreme. Several folks on here have already said that ebt was added to russels, and it's easy to see that. I'm curious about the size and bloodlines of staff that they added to working terriers, and were able to keep the size down. The famous Billy dog, that did so well in the rat pits, was he a pure terrier, or a cross? I've read where some say he was a Manchester terrier but not sure. Statues I've seen show a small muscular dog with cropped ears and tails, and it's reported he weighed 18-19 lbs. A lot of recorded matches in these old books tell of 18 lb. dogs. being fought. I can see where they could have easily just been absorbed into the working terriers of the day. I guess somethings we will never know, I bet there are still some old timers around with that knowledge. One other thing I meant to say earlier, a lot of the fighting dogs painted and described as rough or broken coated. The Hink's dog was one of them, they lay credit to him and his family with developing them in the 1860s, but document them being bred by others 30-40 years prior, and him refining the breed. One exert refers to Hinks as clipping and shaving his dogs for a show in the Halifax and Calder Vale agricultural societies 28th dog show.

[p3d 879]

no harm men but i dont think any of them bulls weigh 20lb!! i have terriers here in my yard are around 20lb weight and they look nowhere near as heavy as them pics just posted.... i was in company not so long ago about 2 months back... fella was able to show me a full EBT bitch....a blue/brindle bitch...she was around 17 inches to tts but she still weighd 25-27.... working weight..... and not the lamb shaped type getting paraded about today.....ill try get a pic of her.... she like the original bull as far as i could see....very athletic, not the big wide barrelled chest and good straight legs.... but she ate every wooden box or terrier box when put in the boot.... but thats no fault of the bitches....just bad rearing as a pup!

 

JD,

 

I agree, 20lb Bull terriers are hard to come by.

When Bull blood is added to a terrier line, SIZE is what is lost in my opinion.

The positives were head size, bone and dead gameness. The last one would be disputed as a positive by some.

 

I think if you look at the history of "Hunt Terriers" i.e. terriers used exclusively for bolting Fox.

Every professional terrier man working this type of dog would avoid bull blood in his line.

They need to limit the size and the adding bull would push the weight up over 20lbs.

Hunt terriers tend to be the old style Russell's in my opinion.

 

My understanding is that Bull blood was added to terrier lines to produce

the Sealyham type and the Smooth Patterdale type.

The Sealyham size went over the 20lb mark and could work because the burrows in the UK were big.

A Sealyham Terrier from TRING around 1900's.

 

The Smooth Patterdale was kept small.

The breeding skill has to be admired.

I think that the American market hunting in smaller groundhog burrows was an incentive.

Maybe Mr Nuttal will share his methods in time?

[Mouser 18]

Thanks for the good pics that have been added.

[dixiefried 269]

Cheshire Type Terrier infused into Making Sealyham...wouldn't class the type as Bull .I.M.O. Good Ol' West Highland Type prob.put more in

Re; Tring ,Jackets Still Sh**t ,nothing changed there.

Fella in Cheshire area ,putting Bull into Sealyhams now ..How History turns on its' head Only thing is " inbetween " all the component parts have been watered down and F**d,can't re-invent the wheel...it has to be Maintained

Mouser..Get hold of DOG Painting 1840 - 1940 A social history of the dog in art.William Secord ..very good pics /Info

[Stabs 2]

Billy was bulldog x bulldog/terrier if memory serves me right. He sas condidered to be one of the foundation dogs of the Manchester although he certainly wasn't a Manchester himself

[Jack Daniels 33]

 

no harm men but i dont think any of them bulls weigh 20lb!! i have terriers here in my yard are around 20lb weight and they look nowhere near as heavy as them pics just posted.... i was in company not so long ago about 2 months back... fella was able to show me a full EBT bitch....a blue/brindle bitch...she was around 17 inches to tts but she still weighd 25-27.... working weight..... and not the lamb shaped type getting paraded about today.....ill try get a pic of her.... she like the original bull as far as i could see....very athletic, not the big wide barrelled chest and good straight legs.... but she ate every wooden box or terrier box when put in the boot.... but thats no fault of the bitches....just bad rearing as a pup!

 

JD,

 

I agree, 20lb Bull terriers are hard to come by.

When Bull blood is added to a terrier line, SIZE is what is lost in my opinion.

The positives were head size, bone and dead gameness. The last one would be disputed as a positive by some.

 

I think if you look at the history of "Hunt Terriers" i.e. terriers used exclusively for bolting Fox.

Every professional terrier man working this type of dog would avoid bull blood in his line.

They need to limit the size and the adding bull would push the weight up over 20lbs.

Hunt terriers tend to be the old style Russell's in my opinion.

 

My understanding is that Bull blood was added to terrier lines to produce

the Sealyham type and the Smooth Patterdale type.

The Sealyham size went over the 20lb mark and could work because the burrows in the UK were big.

SealyhamTerrier.jpg

A Sealyham Terrier from TRING around 1900's.

 

The Smooth Patterdale was kept small.

The breeding skill has to be admired.

I think that the American market hunting in smaller groundhog burrows was an incentive.

Maybe Mr Nuttal will share his methods in time?

 

i agree, P3D and this is why i made the post..... most terriers in my circles all have some type of bull blood in the mix and it would have been the bull x that has been stated! small extremeley game animals with a loyal but non aggressive temperment! this is why i laff now a days when i see a very strong boned terrier from certain types being slated as too big yet have the ability too reach quarry... most terriers i see being worked even small bullish type nuttalls have been around the 17lb weight... and too me they were small....but very capable of doing the task...big or small....if the lines kept tight...theres no kennell space for slackers!

[Bosun11 537]

As an admirer of the EBT (bull terrier) as I owned and worked one as a kid, it's contribution to working terriers has got to be limited to say the least....

And whilst I find stuff on James Hinks and his breeding programme fascinating, he bred for both the coin and the show bench, other than the 'history', he's a lost leader IMO, we need to be taking Stafford (type) blood here.

 

So that post by p3d, for me, hit home. Because in my city, in the early 80's, there was the start of the bull terrier boom, the first wave, so to speak.

In my early teens, it was The Jam, flight jackets, Air Wear, etc and the coming of fighting dogs.

 

Suddenly, at that time, they were there! I can still remember seeing two, must have been the late 70's, being waked by lads not much older than me, on some waste ground (the Oller!) on the bus with me mam and being glued to the window, telling her all about what they were.

 

Then at school we were all taking about them, some talking all 'big time' about them getting one (the same kids who had all the best trainies!). Then lads had 'em BUT and this is the point to my ramblings.... They were ALL a type you rarely see now, either small and racily proportioned or small with terrier bodies and massive heads. You could almost judge how cool a blokes dad was by how good his pup/dog was...!

 

I can remember the cooler dads kids having them tiny bodied massive headed types, three in my street and all of 'em tipped up when eating, you know, the back legs lifted off the ground...But their 'pedigrees' were bollox, almost all black. Not that we gave a crap about sommat like that! We then, like now, I suppose, just wanted our dogs to raise our status!!

 

Massive bull heads on tiny terrier type bodies... Bodies that now, looking back, would have easily got to ground if the head wished....

 

That was my world, a city full of Scallies and bull terriers, they went hand in hand and the point of this nostalgic post, is to highlight the fact that my recollection of bull bloods in the early 80's was that they were small... Fecking real small, that was the 'norm' then....

 

So if that was then....Not hard to find tiny stuff with enough heart to add to a line of working terrier...????

[VOON 1,313]

1/8th bull

[Stabs 2]

Great post Bosun! The Jam and bull terriers...you just summed up my childhood too! lol

My uncle had a white dog that he used in the field and he kept it up the allotment with him all the time and fed it on sheep heads (10p a bag from the butchers on Cheapside). I used to be transfixed with this beast and that started me on a road littered with disappointment lol. I once wrote about what I wanted in life as a young chap and that was a Greyhound and a Bull Terrier. What I actually wanted was what I thought a Greyhound and Bull Terrier could do.....so ended up with a lurcher and a stafford.

 

I remember a chap in Scotland with some tiny pit dogs in the 90's/00's. He gifted one to my colleagues and it sure was a nice little thing. Used to advertise in Mario's old magazine.