Bull Type Dogs

[YOKEL 2,343]

Gnash, I think you're looking at the trait of gameness as a very black and white trait rather than a varying scale from gutless to dead game. I'd say it's as natural as any other trait physical or mental. You can't just breed dead game dogs like you can't just breed English Derby winners. But you can produce dogs that are on average gamer than the majority, like you can breed greys that are on average faster than the majority. Doesn't mean speed or indeed gameness isn't natural, just the extremes aren't common, nonetheless there had to be the potential for that in the genetics.

a "dead game" dog is quite useless in any kennel for he ceases to exist, you can't breed from him, match him, tickle his tummy....nothing....a dog that is game enough to get the job done, rough mouthed and hits the right spot...he'll do for me...

Yokel

[Born Hunter 17,909]

 

Gnash, I think you're looking at the trait of gameness as a very black and white trait rather than a varying scale from gutless to dead game. I'd say it's as natural as any other trait physical or mental. You can't just breed dead game dogs like you can't just breed English Derby winners. But you can produce dogs that are on average gamer than the majority, like you can breed greys that are on average faster than the majority. Doesn't mean speed or indeed gameness isn't natural, just the extremes aren't common, nonetheless there had to be the potential for that in the genetics.

 

I think you are talking about " natural " in terms of the way it produces.......................im talking about " natural " as in the trait itself......its not natural for a dog to be willing to fight beyond a certain level.......and if he wont fight beyond a certain level he,s not game ??

 

There are some people who think gameness IS black and white......as in a dog is either game or its not and conditioning is the only factor as to performance............myself i dont agree with that i think there are varying levels of gameness...........those peoples argument would be if theres varying levels of gameness is there varying levels of cur ?......and for me thats where you just have to keep it sensible....hence i DONT think its black and white at all.

Just passing my thoughts on it being natural and I agree to the level it is exhibited in domestic dogs it's not natural but to be game surely is otherwise where did it come from? In the same way to run fast is natural but not to the extremes a greyhound can which would be suicidal in the natural world. I guess it depends how you define the trait of gameness? Simply drive is it not, the levels to which you talk are just the extremes of drive wouldn't you say? The extremes of gameness had to be derived from something natural and focused to extreme levels by man. Jmo

[Born Hunter 17,909]

Or is gameness drive beyond a certain level, in which case we're just arguing semantics.

[Born Hunter 17,909]

 

Gnash, I think you're looking at the trait of gameness as a very black and white trait rather than a varying scale from gutless to dead game. I'd say it's as natural as any other trait physical or mental. You can't just breed dead game dogs like you can't just breed English Derby winners. But you can produce dogs that are on average gamer than the majority, like you can breed greys that are on average faster than the majority. Doesn't mean speed or indeed gameness isn't natural, just the extremes aren't common, nonetheless there had to be the potential for that in the genetics.

 

I think you are talking about " natural " in terms of the way it produces.......................im talking about " natural " as in the trait itself......its not natural for a dog to be willing to fight beyond a certain level.......and if he wont fight beyond a certain level he,s not game ??

 

There are some people who think gameness IS black and white......as in a dog is either game or its not and conditioning is the only factor as to performance............myself i dont agree with that i think there are varying levels of gameness...........those peoples argument would be if theres varying levels of gameness is there varying levels of cur ?......and for me thats where you just have to keep it sensible....hence i DONT think its black and white at all.

Just passing my thoughts on it being natural and I agree to the level it is exhibited in domestic dogs it's not natural but to be game surely is otherwise where did it come from? In the same way to run fast is natural but not to the extremes a greyhound can which would be suicidal in the natural world. I guess it depends how you define the trait of gameness? Simply drive is it not, the levels to which you talk are just the extremes of drive wouldn't you say? The extremes of gameness had to be derived from something natural and focused to extreme levels by man. Jmo

 

Gnash, I think you're looking at the trait of gameness as a very black and white trait rather than a varying scale from gutless to dead game. I'd say it's as natural as any other trait physical or mental. You can't just breed dead game dogs like you can't just breed English Derby winners. But you can produce dogs that are on average gamer than the majority, like you can breed greys that are on average faster than the majority. Doesn't mean speed or indeed gameness isn't natural, just the extremes aren't common, nonetheless there had to be the potential for that in the genetics.

 

Spit it out bird! LOL

[gnasher16 31,364]

 

Just passing my thoughts on it being natural and I agree to the level it is exhibited in domestic dogs it's not natural but to be game surely is otherwise where did it come from? In the same way to run fast is natural but not to the extremes a greyhound can which would be suicidal in the natural world. I guess it depends how you define the trait of gameness? Simply drive is it not, the levels to which you talk are just the extremes of drive wouldn't you say? The extremes of gameness had to be derived from something natural and focused to extreme levels by man. Jmo

 

Gameness has nothing to do with drive.................drive is a physical thing gameness is all mental.....................you say it would be suicidal for a Greyhound to be as fast in the wild.......yes as it would be for a Bulldog to extremely game in the wild.....................hence both breeds have a certain trait that has been heightened by man that if not heightened by man would not be there to such a level....................ie its not natural its man made.

[gnasher16 31,364]

Or is gameness drive beyond a certain level, in which case we're just arguing semantics.

Gameness is a state of mind.......the most bloated out overweight lazy lump of shit in the world with no drive whatsoever can still have extreme gameness.

[trenchfoot 4,243]

 

Just passing my thoughts on it being natural and I agree to the level it is exhibited in domestic dogs it's not natural but to be game surely is otherwise where did it come from? In the same way to run fast is natural but not to the extremes a greyhound can which would be suicidal in the natural world. I guess it depends how you define the trait of gameness? Simply drive is it not, the levels to which you talk are just the extremes of drive wouldn't you say? The extremes of gameness had to be derived from something natural and focused to extreme levels by man. Jmo

 

Gameness has nothing to do with drive.................drive is a physical thing gameness is all mental.....................you say it would be suicidal for a Greyhound to be as fast in the wild.......yes as it would be for a Bulldog to extremely game in the wild.....................hence both breeds have a certain trait that has been heightened by man that if not heightened by man would not be there to such a level....................ie its not natural its man made.

Gnasher, I'd have to disagree, it's not man made, it's nature , but man manipulated

[Born Hunter 17,909]

I'd argue the trait is entirely natural, the level to which it is exhibited however is not.

 

As we agreed its a varying scale, so does a predator not display at least a low level of gameness when taking a testing prey?

[gnasher16 31,364]

 

 

Just passing my thoughts on it being natural and I agree to the level it is exhibited in domestic dogs it's not natural but to be game surely is otherwise where did it come from? In the same way to run fast is natural but not to the extremes a greyhound can which would be suicidal in the natural world. I guess it depends how you define the trait of gameness? Simply drive is it not, the levels to which you talk are just the extremes of drive wouldn't you say? The extremes of gameness had to be derived from something natural and focused to extreme levels by man. Jmo

Gameness has nothing to do with drive.................drive is a physical thing gameness is all mental.....................you say it would be suicidal for a Greyhound to be as fast in the wild.......yes as it would be for a Bulldog to extremely game in the wild.....................hence both breeds have a certain trait that has been heightened by man that if not heightened by man would not be there to such a level....................ie its not natural its man made.

Gnasher, I'd have to disagree, it's not man made, it's nature , but man manipulated

 

Blimey thats being picky ..............no ok man didnt design and produce it.....it was always there...............im not getting into a wording debate as im not too bright....i was using manipulated earlier in the thread but its too long and man made is sufficient to get the point across

Edited November 14, 2013 by gnasher16

[gnasher16 31,364]

I'd argue the trait is entirely natural, the level to which it is exhibited however is not.

 

As we agreed its a varying scale, so does a predator not display at least a low level of gameness when taking a testing prey?

 

Thats like asking when a cur quits after 5 minutes is he gamer than a dog who quit after 2 minutes but not as game as a dog who quit after 10 minutes.

 

For me by using the word " gameness " it has to start with something or its just not being sensible whatever breed or animal your talking about.

[trenchfoot 4,243]

I'd argue the trait is entirely natural, the level to which it is exhibited however is not.

As we agreed its a varying scale, so does a predator not display at least a low level of gameness when taking a testing prey?

I know where you are coming from, but is that true gameness? Or just drive?

 

Or is that us humanising predators?

[trenchfoot 4,243]

 

 

 

Just passing my thoughts on it being natural and I agree to the level it is exhibited in domestic dogs it's not natural but to be game surely is otherwise where did it come from? In the same way to run fast is natural but not to the extremes a greyhound can which would be suicidal in the natural world. I guess it depends how you define the trait of gameness? Simply drive is it not, the levels to which you talk are just the extremes of drive wouldn't you say? The extremes of gameness had to be derived from something natural and focused to extreme levels by man. Jmo

Gameness has nothing to do with drive.................drive is a physical thing gameness is all mental.....................you say it would be suicidal for a Greyhound to be as fast in the wild.......yes as it would be for a Bulldog to extremely game in the wild.....................hence both breeds have a certain trait that has been heightened by man that if not heightened by man would not be there to such a level....................ie its not natural its man made.

Gnasher, I'd have to disagree, it's not man made, it's nature , but man manipulated

Blimey thats being picky ..............no ok man didnt design and produce it.....it was always there...............im not getting into a wording debate as im not too bright.... for me man made is sufficient to get the point across

Gnash, I ain't bright either, but I think you've made your point we'll enough for me to think about it, rather than argue my case.

 

Don't mean that I believe you are right though

 

Yorkie

Edited November 14, 2013 by trenchfoot

[Born Hunter 17,909]

Alright, we're all coming from this at different angles. I'm probably being overly scientific in my thinking on gameness and gnasher you're being very purest. I think that's about it for an internet discussion. I'm off for a swim.

[johnny boy68 11,726]

Alright, we're all coming from this at different angles. I'm probably being overly scientific in my thinking on gameness and gnasher you're being very purest. I think that's about it for an internet discussion. I'm off for a swim.

You being overly scientific.........No !!

 

[Casso 1,261]

Drive in dogs is like a magnetic connection to a certain object , it's a pull energising the dog towards its target , it's not a mental process , in most cases the dog is genetically preprogrammed to act on certain stimulation , running dog to movement of rabbit , sheepdog to movement of animals but it's not fixed and social ability can overcome instinct, shepherds fitted into protection work , labs make good service dogs

 

The strength and duration of sustaining that connection under duress comes from the heart , it is still all the same drive to make contact in whatever form it takes , fighting , running , baying , retrieving across frozen lakes in mid winter , same drive to make connection to whatever form that is genetically preprogrammed for that dog

 

Gameness is just the amount of resistance an animal can take before that drive to make contact diminishes,