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9 hours ago, Dead Eyes said:

I disagree Kaiser Soze 

 

if you have a great dog with no history whatsoever then you wouldn't breed him? 

 

The blood helps massively, but it's not the be all and end all 

That's a fair point DE. I had a great dog with mixed blood but good breeding. You couldn't but take a chance and breed him. Bred him several times. Although there's a few pups working there wasn't a high enough percentage per litter. There's no hard and fast rules. It could have clicked. But that's where luck comes into it. I just think to maintain a line, keep it as tight as possible for as long as possible. 👍

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If breeding terriers or any working animal was as easy as some profess wouldn't we all have a yard of workers ? I've only had one lifetime,  I'm no expert but I can tell you what I've come to kno

i've been lucky enough to chat about breeding with some of what i class as greats worker breeders of the type i like , but as Dillydog has said we only have the one life time, i've had my own terriers

Exactly,  you can eliminate all the luck factors,  you can go to the legends with their legendary dogs and bitches and still produce shit.  I'm with you 100% in taking the guess work out of breeding a

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2 hours ago, Dabhand said:

so say ive just bred my best dog on my best bitch both the sane line real well bred there are 4 pups im to keep one 3 are to be gifted to mates i trust and will do right by them that will fetch them on tidy enter them properly socialise them properly 

 

not all 4 of them are going to make world beaters so i just put that down to luck who walks in the yard and puts their hand on that special pup 

 

yes the other ones could make tidy or average dogs but there could be that one special one we are all trying to get and they dont come often so thats what i call luck 

show me someone who says they will all make good ones i will show you a liar 

just my opinion on it

You're right D you can watch and study pups and take your pick accordingly. It's then in the lap of the Gods. What I'm trying to say is a lot of thought, research and work, keeping things tight to a proven well tested line increases your chances of success as opposed to haphazard breeding relying on luck.👍

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On 3/27/2018 at 16:54, dillydog said:

You're all right, that's the luck element 😂

I never said chance your arm on the Gumtree shite, what I'm trying to say is exactly what Dabs was saying. 

I'll give you an example, my old bitch Treacle had a mistake litter to my Sid, every pup in the litter was at best below average........and that's being kind. The same dog covered the same bitch four years later and every single pup from that litter is working to a high standard. I didn't let the "luck" factor influence me, both times he covered her was out of my hands, but it's the best example I can think of to show the mishmash of genetics.

I'm not into "speed breeding" , I like to give everything I've produced a fair crack of the whip. All the talk of cull hard and follow the best from the best is perfectly true and proper, but when put into practice you'll be a long time dead before you produce a line of dogs. I'm certainly not advocating breeding from lesser animals, but there's to many lads out there with dreams of producing"their own line" that a bit of reality might just give them a kick in the ass.  None of us will produce a perfect line of terriers, it's been tried and failed by everyone that came before us, do your homework and breed for the best every time, just don't forget to get out and enjoy yourself somewhere along the way.

Dilly may I ask why you ran the second litter on if the 1st litter was below average and I know you know the breeding of your dogs inside out personally I wouldn't have been inclined to do so.

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I'd broke my back and neck FM, literally,  I had two nice young bitches in ready to go and I just thought I'd give them to decent lads and keep a couple of pups back. If for no other reason than to give me a couple of years where I didn't have to do anything serious.  I've got faith in the blood, I've seen plenty of shit in litters with good dogs in and ran with the odds.

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While there's a certain amount of "luck" in breeding a litter of terriers, you should know what mating is the best option if you have your own line/family for a lot of years, one of the biggest problems is that most look at what they have in their yard through "rose tinted glasses" and aren't  honest with themselves, you don't just need to look at the sire and dam but their litter mates/grandparent's etc,,,

You can weigh the odds of getting consistant worker's in your favour if your careful, aswell as a good dose of luck, not all will make the grade but it should help,,

One thing's for sure, all this rubbish about using a fox killing dog is all well and good, but if the bitch isn't a bloody good worker your onto a loser from the start,, a good, well bred, hard working bitch is what you should be breeding from not mediocre,,:thumbs:

 

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A good rough dog over steady bitches is the norm here otherwise you have head bangers that never last the distance IME . . Maybe I’ve been lucky in using a very good dog from the outset that stamped his trait on most everything . The bitches I started with were out and out bayers of mature years two of them but what followed was decent grafting stock if a bit headstrong . 

For some the use of one dog as stud seems alien but if he produces the goods thats the way it’s been for me . 

Never breed to a dog that hasn’t seen 5 seasons of honest graft , another of my choices . 

I find it strange when lads use this dog over that bitch and then change the dog the following mating ,why because he  wasn’t good enough ! . 

We will will never fully agree on this and rightly so otherwise there would be no second place lol 

 

 

 

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The difference between good dogs and that one special dog are worlds apart,there are plenty of lads producing good dogs,but I have yet to see or meet the man who consistently produces that special dog(the holy grail).They crop up occasionally and when they do cherish them,as they are as rare as hens teeth,

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5 hours ago, foxdropper said:

A good rough dog over steady bitches is the norm here otherwise you have head bangers that never last the distance IME . . Maybe I’ve been lucky in using a very good dog from the outset that stamped his trait on most everything . The bitches I started with were out and out bayers of mature years two of them but what followed was decent grafting stock if a bit headstrong . 

For some the use of one dog as stud seems alien but if he produces the goods thats the way it’s been for me . 

Never breed to a dog that hasn’t seen 5 seasons of honest graft , another of my choices . 

I find it strange when lads use this dog over that bitch and then change the dog the following mating ,why because he  wasn’t good enough ! . 

We will will never fully agree on this and rightly so otherwise there would be no second place lol 

 

 

 

I've found one that I actually disagree with you on! 

 

The whole 5 seasons thing; have you never lost a dog after 4 seasons, or even 2, and wished you didn't have that policy in place? 

 

And as for using a different stud the next time around; I think you should be breeding workers but also looking to the future. A line couldn't survive on full sisters and brothers back to each other. It certainly could on half brothers and sisters 

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2 hours ago, Dead Eyes said:

I've found one that I actually disagree with you on! 

 

The whole 5 seasons thing; have you never lost a dog after 4 seasons, or even 2, and wished you didn't have that policy in place? 

 

And as for using a different stud the next time around; I think you should be breeding workers but also looking to the future. A line couldn't survive on full sisters and brothers back to each other. It certainly could on half brothers and sisters 

Can’t see a problem in breeding from a dog or bitch after a couple of seasons if ye see something that little bit special in them. Better to chance an early breeding than to never get it. But that’s just me, appreciate other people have there way of doing things. 

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Nothing wrong with breeding a bitch young aslong as she has shown what she is made off and you know the blood behind her.I have a bitch here I bred just gone 2 year old reason for doing so was we had no other bitch and after seeing her work her 1st season we were more than happy with her also her work style was hard so we were also wary of the fact she could be lost to ground at anytime so she was bred.she was put back to her own blood and produced 5 pups all of which worked with 3 still going strong and 2 lost to ground. I repeated the mating 3years later and out of 6 born only one bitch survived they got that puppy syndrome disease. The bitch that survived worked literly first time out and has now 2 good seasons behind her. Her mother now 8 year old is hopefully in pup again and either way this is her last time to be bred different dog this time as the other stud is sadly dead but also a very good dog with a lot of digging behind him so of similar blood so fingers crossed things go to plan.

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