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Queen's Dog To Be Banned

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18 hours ago, belucky said:

I have just had a right old sickener regarding this kind of thing , I have just had the wisdom dna test done on my cocker bitch, I own and bred her dam, I own the sire , I owned her grandmother,, it turns out my bitches great grandmother on her dams side Is an English springer spaniel ,, nothing I can do to about it ,, according to the pedigree the person who bred this "springer" used a ftc cocker onto there bitch , they have a kc prefix so I might try and track them down that way , a pal of mine has had a similar experience lately also with a cocker but says the kennel club wern,t any help .

At this point, does it honestly change anything?

I still don't really understand all the fuss over this cross breeding. There should be a cocker working standard and a springer working standard and whatever goes in to create the best dogs at those jobs should be neither here nor there surely.

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I've heard stories of top trialling men not registering pups until the following season so they could enter older dogs in puppy trials and win. I'd say the truth been known then very few dogs have 100% genuine papers all the way back in their ancestry. From bitchs too old to register pups to good dogs been used as stud that never had papers. A lot of paper swapping goes on. I seen a lad selling registered springers that had terriers ears. Very obvious but they still found buyers.

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8 hours ago, Welsh_red said:

I had a look at those dna tests before. They can be very hit and miss

This test seems to be quite accurate down to pinpointing what actual bitch was the springer, to be honest the main reason I wanted her done was I intend to use ftc rollafields redbud on her in the summer with the intention of keeping a dog and bitch back for myself , the stud fee to use him is £700 reduced to £400 if your bitch is tested pure  , I'm going there regardless 👍🏼

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18 hours ago, jiggy said:

I've heard stories of top trialling men not registering pups until the following season so they could enter older dogs in puppy trials and win. I'd say the truth been known then very few dogs have 100% genuine papers all the way back in their ancestry. From bitchs too old to register pups to good dogs been used as stud that never had papers. A lot of paper swapping goes on. I seen a lad selling registered springers that had terriers ears. Very obvious but they still found buyers.

There are no puppy trials in the UK. You either run against other Novice dogs or against other Open dogs (a Novice can run against Open dogs but you are unlikely to get an entry)

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LOL just wondering who at the palace is going to give Liz the bad news , " Ma'am ,Ian Openshaw has given you a mongrel they want the trophy back .

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On 26/09/2018 at 07:12, butcherboy said:

There are no puppy trials in the UK. You either run against other Novice dogs or against other Open dogs (a Novice can run against Open dogs but you are unlikely to get an entry)

He might be thinking of a puppy test not trial

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On 24/09/2018 at 14:42, belucky said:

I have just had a right old sickener regarding this kind of thing , I have just had the wisdom dna test done on my cocker bitch, I own and bred her dam, I own the sire , I owned her grandmother,, it turns out my bitches great grandmother on her dams side Is an English springer spaniel ,, nothing I can do to about it ,, according to the pedigree the person who bred this "springer" used a ftc cocker onto there bitch , they have a kc prefix so I might try and track them down that way , a pal of mine has had a similar experience lately also with a cocker but says the kennel club wern,t any help .

Any chance you can post a picture of your pedigree? Which dog came back as a springer? Pm if you prefer...

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I’m interested to know how you’ve been told that the great grandmother is an ESS.  Who has provided the base DNA to say that this is a Cocker, and that this is an ESS?  More importantly who has decided that this is the standard. Do the show dogs have the same DNA profile.  Look at the similarities between the two show bred breeds.  Both the Cockers and Springers have pendulous ears, droopy eyes, slobbery jowls and a boxy conformation.  The working versions also have their own similarities. I don’t see how  DNA can separate them unless you can physically obtain the DNA from a specific dog, get them on the Jeremy Kyle show and say, “Rover, you are the father.”  If you have a KC pedigree you can trial your dog under KC rules. 

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As I understand it, and this may well be incorrect.  Before there were distinct breeds they had hunting/flushing/retrieving spaniel like dogs.  They were used to ‘spring’ game (flush).  The smaller ones were favoured to get into tight places and shift Woodcock and they were called ‘cockers.’  From this they started to breed from the two types thus developing two distinct breeds. This is only what I’ve been told and I have no historical, documentary or scientific evidence to prove this.  So it’s only what I’ve heard from a mate which makes it a more reliable source than Wikipedia.

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4 hours ago, wilbur foxhound said:

It states on Wikipedia that under a century ago springers and cockers were born in the same litter,am f****d to see how they came to that conclusion 

Think I read somewhere ( could of been shooting times)that pups were throwing big above 35 pounds or something like that and some were throwing small below that so they decided to have 2 types and split them according to weight. I've a 43 pound springer bitch who is only smaller than a few springer dogs but she would dwarf some of those cocker bitchs.

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On ‎01‎/‎10‎/‎2018 at 19:04, Mochastorm said:

As I understand it, and this may well be incorrect.  Before there were distinct breeds they had hunting/flushing/retrieving spaniel like dogs.  They were used to ‘spring’ game (flush).  The smaller ones were favoured to get into tight places and shift Woodcock and they were called ‘cockers.’  From this they started to breed from the two types thus developing two distinct breeds. This is only what I’ve been told and I have no historical, documentary or scientific evidence to prove this.  So it’s only what I’ve heard from a mate which makes it a more reliable source than Wikipedia.

as far as I know that is correct, so how can the dna of one be different from the other unless one or both were outcrossed to something else.

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My own belief, and I am no scientist, but you would need to obtain the DNA from 250 - 500 dogs (the more the better) which you strongly believe resemble, and are ESS.  Then do the same with Cockers.  It would then be for a geneticist to identify the DNA strand that is peculiar to that breed.  Even then I doubt that you would find a Forensic Scientist to get up in a court and say absolutely that they could identify the dog by DNA.  I’m sure one could find a company to identify the DNA of mongrels, the results being for the interest of the owner.  These are not for court purposes.  I would question how broad the DNA database of each individual breed is, and how it is verified and policed.

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the gene pool of cockers is small, and breeders don't improve this when they breed from popular trialling champs just to sell pups, when I breed I look for first of all a good picking up dog that puts in a full season, then his pedigree needs to have as few matches as possible, with my bitch, I don't look to see if a dog in that ped has an ancestor that was not a cocker, my  goal is to breed good working sound dogs, witch is what we all should do when we breed. we should be able to trust each other to put the breed first, but we cant, atb two crows.

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Never heard of this the other way round - Springer FT winner or champion with a little bit of cocker somewhere in the DNA? Personally I gave up registering my springer pups with the KC three generations ago and have never had any trouble selling (on the rare occasions I have had a litter) or their working ability, temperament or fitness. I know which dogs I'm happy breeding with as I've seen them work day in day out either picking up or beating. Dogs are there to put in a shift, not show off their limited (I've swept up behind them on a shoot day) ability, reliance on the whistle rather than instinct and DNA test results to judges. I'm happy with a pint from the keeper at the end of the day rather than a rosette and a plastic trophy?

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