BGD 6,385 Posted July 8, 2016 Report Share Posted July 8, 2016 What's with this assumption you've both made that unarmed people killed by the police are criminals? As we've seen in so many cases over the years you don't need to committing any crime to end up shot by the police... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Born Hunter 17,654 Posted July 8, 2016 Report Share Posted July 8, 2016 (edited) I don't think there's an assumption that they're criminals, just that they're not being disproportionately victimised. Though I'm sure any reasonable person would be open to stats to the contrary. Like wilf I don't think it's fair to judge it by victims as a proportion of total relitive population, that assumes criminality rates are equal. Surely it's fairer to judge as a proportion of convicted criminals within each relative Population? Though of course that in itself makes the assumption that arrest and conviction rates are fair in both cases, which of course they may not be if the police target blacks. Edited July 8, 2016 by Born Hunter Quote Link to post Share on other sites
WILF 44,482 Posted July 8, 2016 Report Share Posted July 8, 2016 What's with this assumption you've both made that unarmed people killed by the police are criminals? As we've seen in so many cases over the years you don't need to committing any crime to end up shot by the police... As I have learned over the years mate......we are all a f***ing expert after the event! What would you or I do at the precise moment?.......would you gamble your life or pull the trigger and go home to your wife and kids and worry about it after? That's the crux of it right there my friend Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BGD 6,385 Posted July 8, 2016 Report Share Posted July 8, 2016 (edited) I don't think there's an assumption that they're criminals, just that they're not being disproportionately victimised. Well both yours and WILF's post only talk about criminals, I thought we were talking about unarmed citizens killed by the police so found that a bit strange. What's with this assumption you've both made that unarmed people killed by the police are criminals? As we've seen in so many cases over the years you don't need to committing any crime to end up shot by the police... As I have learned over the years mate......we are all a f***ing expert after the event! What would you or I do at the precise moment?.......would you gamble your life or pull the trigger and go home to your wife and kids and worry about it after? That's the crux of it right there my friend See I agree that most of these killings are honest f**k ups by the police. I just think even honest f**k ups should have consequences and if the same f**k ups keep happening then you need to start looking at fixing whatever is causing them. Edited July 8, 2016 by BGD Quote Link to post Share on other sites
WILF 44,482 Posted July 8, 2016 Report Share Posted July 8, 2016 I watched that film where the two coppers are trying to wrestle that great big black dude to the floor........he was struggling like f**k, Why? If he ain't done anything then just lay on the ground and go through the motions .......why wouldn't you? Same as the dude in the car.....he is gun carrier, he has allegedly told the cozzer he has a gun, he has a gun pointed at him and instead of just staying still as f**k with his hands in clear view clever bollocks decides to reach for something........I mean what? When you have a gun pointed at you by someone who spends their whole working life dealing with nutters then stupid is fatal ! 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Born Hunter 17,654 Posted July 8, 2016 Report Share Posted July 8, 2016 I don't think there's an assumption that they're criminals, just that they're not being disproportionately victimised. Well both yours and WILF's post only talk about criminals, I thought we were talking about unarmed citizens killed by the police so found that a bit strange. What's with this assumption you've both made that unarmed people killed by the police are criminals? As we've seen in so many cases over the years you don't need to committing any crime to end up shot by the police...As I have learned over the years mate......we are all a f***ing expert after the event!What would you or I do at the precise moment?.......would you gamble your life or pull the trigger and go home to your wife and kids and worry about it after?That's the crux of it right there my friend See I agree that most of these killings are honest f**k ups by the police. I just think even honest f**k ups should have consequences and if the same f**k ups keep happening then you need to start looking at fixing whatever is causing them. Unarmed citizens under some sort of criminal investigation. So surely it's a reasonable assumption to make that those rates of investigation will be higher in demographics that are socially responsible for a higher percentage of crime? Therefore logical to assume they will appear disproportionately victimised by these f**k ups? Hypothetically if Chinese fellas were statistically never associated with gun crime then it'd be reasonable to expect them to be investigated for it less and as a result be less likely to suffer from a police f**k up. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BGD 6,385 Posted July 8, 2016 Report Share Posted July 8, 2016 I don't think there's an assumption that they're criminals, just that they're not being disproportionately victimised. Well both yours and WILF's post only talk about criminals, I thought we were talking about unarmed citizens killed by the police so found that a bit strange. What's with this assumption you've both made that unarmed people killed by the police are criminals? As we've seen in so many cases over the years you don't need to committing any crime to end up shot by the police...As I have learned over the years mate......we are all a f***ing expert after the event!What would you or I do at the precise moment?.......would you gamble your life or pull the trigger and go home to your wife and kids and worry about it after?That's the crux of it right there my friend See I agree that most of these killings are honest f**k ups by the police. I just think even honest f**k ups should have consequences and if the same f**k ups keep happening then you need to start looking at fixing whatever is causing them. Unarmed citizens under some sort of criminal investigation. So surely it's a reasonable assumption to make that those rates of investigation will be higher in demographics that are socially responsible for a higher percentage of crime? Therefore logical to assume they will appear disproportionately victimised by these f**k ups? Hypothetically if Chinese fellas were statistically never associated with gun crime then it'd be reasonable to expect them to be investigated for it less and as a result be less likely to suffer from a police f**k up. But that's the thing, you don't need to be under investigation for any crime. As we've been discussing it can all start from a routine traffic stop... We seem to be getting really caught up in the race/criminal thing. I think we can all agree if you're involved in crime then you're taking the risk of being arrested or shot by the police, live by the sword and die by the sword and all that. What I'm most concerned about is folk just going about their daily lives being killed by the state. Or mentally ill people that need help ending up shot instead. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Born Hunter 17,654 Posted July 8, 2016 Report Share Posted July 8, 2016 I was using investigation fairly liberally, to even include traffic offences. If your demographic is more likely to be investigated it's reasonable to say that that demographic will suffer more f**k ups as a result. Making it look disproportionate as a percentage of relitive population size. I agree, it's f***ing tragic that these things happen. And if policing procedures can be changed to reduce it without inhibiting effectiveness and officer safety then it should come straight from the President himself! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BGD 6,385 Posted July 8, 2016 Report Share Posted July 8, 2016 I was using investigation fairly liberally, to even include traffic offences. If your demographic is more likely to be investigated it's reasonable to say that that demographic will suffer more f**k ups as a result. Making it look disproportionate as a percentage of relitive population size. I agree, it's f***ing tragic that these things happen. And if policing procedures can be changed to reduce it without inhibiting effectiveness and officer safety then it should come straight from the President himself! We got there in the end, a post we can both agree on 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
DogFox123 1,379 Posted July 9, 2016 Report Share Posted July 9, 2016 (edited) Simple measures could be taken to prevent these incidents in the future. Surely officers could be fitted with a full body suit and ballistic face mask? I'm sure officers wouldn't be so trigger happy knowing that they have that protection..... Edited July 9, 2016 by DogFox123 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Paulnix 426 Posted July 9, 2016 Report Share Posted July 9, 2016 (edited) The idea of an agent of the state pulling a citizen over while they're driving along minding their own business and then they give the a citizen a series of orders and if they're not carried out to the letter the officer can shoot them dead and it's all the citizens fault because they should have known better doesn't sit right with me at all. Just seems to go against any ideas of liberty or freedom from the state to me... "Well I would just roll over and do whatever the state told me." is definitely a good survival stratergy when it comes to encounters with US law enforcement it just doesn't seem like how you should have to behave in a free society. When one false move gives the state the right to gun you down are you really free? Like you say though I'm not a libertarian so obviously I just don't understand. Your premise makes sense, unfortunately we all have realism imposed on us by those that want to cut about being f***ing animals and unfortunately for law abiding young black males in America the law of averages says they are the ones you can't take chances with.......as I said before, that is life. By the way, I heard there had been 500 fatal shooting by US police this year and a 123 were black males, who were the other 377?........ I really don't see it as a race thing, you say yourself less than half of the fatal shootings so far this year have been black men... In 2015 82 unarmed people were fatally shot by US police 42 of them were white and 24 were black. This really isn't only a problem for young black men. Not 100% if the same year but I looked into the stats of the unarmed blacks who were killed for a year and 5 of those were reaching for the police's gun, another was a driver for a drive-by shooting and another was a 69 year old bystander who got hit when a black opened fire on a police car. US police do seem to go over the top, poor training plus some racism no doubt, but you never see anyone mention the elephant in the room do you, the simple fact that the black minority commits a massively disproportionate level of violent crime combined with the seemingly low regard for life with them and the need for them to act all black rapper is bound to make the police a whole lot more jumpy around them, watch the programme on the Albany jail and you can see how so many die, they are far from all gang members or serious criminals but they all seem to act the same. It seems the only way poor blacks get respect is to die by a gun over there, the black community and their attitudes needs to change even more than the polices attitude does. Edited July 9, 2016 by Paulnix 3 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Brewman 1,190 Posted July 9, 2016 Report Share Posted July 9, 2016 Simple measures could be taken to prevent these incidents in the future. Surely officers could be fitted with a full body suit and ballistic face mask? I'm sure officers wouldn't be so trigger happy knowing that they have that protection..... I don't think a ballistic face mask(never heard of one) would save any one from a close up 9mm or a .45 from a handgun never mind a 556 or .762 solid slug from a rifle. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
VOON 1,315 Posted July 9, 2016 Report Share Posted July 9, 2016 Look at the aftermath, when the GF is asked to leave the car. What would have happened if she had said, she wasn't leaving her boyfriend? What if she was hysterical? get on your knee's after just seeing your boyfriend shot, look at the amount of gun's trained on her. Maybe being on Facebook saved her life, yet people want to berate her for her actions. 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
DogFox123 1,379 Posted July 9, 2016 Report Share Posted July 9, 2016 Simple measures could be taken to prevent these incidents in the future. Surely officers could be fitted with a full body suit and ballistic face mask? I'm sure officers wouldn't be so trigger happy knowing that they have that protection.....I don't think a ballistic face mask(never heard of one) would save any one from a close up 9mm or a .45 from a handgun never mind a 556 or .762 solid slug from a rifle. Taiwanese soldiers wearing ballistic masks look like 'the cavalry from hell' | South China Morning Post http://m.scmp.com/news/china-insider/article/1336646/taiwanese-soldiers-wearing-ballistic-masks-look-cavalry-hell Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Tiercel 6,986 Posted July 9, 2016 Report Share Posted July 9, 2016 The thing I do not get is, he told the officer he was legally carrying a concealed weapon, if he had any intention of using it why would he tell them that? TC 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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