thanks stabba that's what I wondered if there was anything closely bred as in a line...and that's what I was getting at ,Billy may have been a superb dog but 2 or 3 generations of Scatter breeding his genes maybe diluted so much,it's unfair to call a dog "Billy bred" hence folk saying seen/known/had failures,but if the line/inbred stuff are doing the biz ,happy days ATB roy