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I can't "like" it Bosun so once again I'll just have to tell you ūüėā

 

I've seen close breeding bring down the size of bitches and conversely take the size of dogs up. I tried talking about it on here once and someone kindly put up a link to a paper on genetics, I no longer have it or I'd put it back up. If you cut out all the waffle and took it to the layman's talk it basically said breed out of your strongest bitches. A bitch always wants to be feminine, so by constantly breeding tight (without picking your strongest bitches) you'll double up on the feminine influence. The same stands for dogs (masculinity) , keep an eye out for it, I've seen it with my own eyes with a line that's nowhere near as tight as the one I keep now.

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If breeding terriers or any working animal was as easy as some profess wouldn't we all have a yard of workers ? I've only had one lifetime,  I'm no expert but I can tell you what I've come to kno

i've been lucky enough to chat about breeding with some of what i class as greats worker breeders of the type i like , but as Dillydog has said we only have the one life time, i've had my own terriers

Exactly,  you can eliminate all the luck factors,  you can go to the legends with their legendary dogs and bitches and still produce shit.  I'm with you 100% in taking the guess work out of breeding a

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As dilly and fd said finding the right lads is hard but if I had such a bitch worthy of breeding from I would seek the advice of the owner of such a such line and get there advice because they would be in the best position to point you in the right direction regarding a stud  as no ones knows the line better but that's not  always the case and when getting a pup promises are sometimes forgotten 

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Ha!

Dilly i can 'like' yours AND again, i was always told that when line breeding, the best litters came out of what were then called 'doggy bitches', which were bitches that looked like dogs, strong types (acted like em too!) You put them to your best dogs... But it was all about the bitches! ;)

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8 minutes ago, dillydog said:

I can't "like" it Bosun so once again I'll just have to tell you ūüėā

 

I've seen close breeding bring down the size of bitches and conversely take the size of dogs up. I tried talking about it on here once and someone kindly put up a link to a paper on genetics, I no longer have it or I'd put it back up. If you cut out all the waffle and took it to the layman's talk it basically said breed out of your strongest bitches. A bitch always wants to be feminine, so by constantly breeding tight (without picking your strongest bitches) you'll double up on the feminine influence. The same stands for dogs (masculinity) , keep an eye out for it, I've seen it with my own eyes with a line that's nowhere near as tight as the one I keep now.

your bang on with that , as stando said earlier in the thread good bitches good dogs get good pups , i'm not over keane  on some of these huge dogs you see , but if all things where equal in the works department i'm more likely to use a dog which is tad bigger than one which a tad small , as you have to keep thinking about he whole family when you are line breeding 

on the subject of using a younger animal i did about 20 years ago , i had bred a hell of a good dog out of DF Dingo and was going to use him on a bitch but he was stolen out of the back of the land rover  that weekend , but  we had bred him so his half sister , so i used his son a two and a half year old who had only worked one full season  but had not put a foot wrong , i bred 4 pups, then the dog was lost to ground  8 months later , a bit of panic as the reasoning was by the time the pups where getting of a age to start the dog would of been better tested leaving less of a ?  but i'm so glad i did use him all pups worked and well into old age one of those pups became the corner stone of the little family i still keep , when you bred for work and gift the pups you can take the odd risk because if its the wrong way to it ends there .

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1 hour ago, dillydog said:

I can't "like" it Bosun so once again I'll just have to tell you ūüėā

 

I've seen close breeding bring down the size of bitches and conversely take the size of dogs up. I tried talking about it on here once and someone kindly put up a link to a paper on genetics, I no longer have it or I'd put it back up. If you cut out all the waffle and took it to the layman's talk it basically said breed out of your strongest bitches. A bitch always wants to be feminine, so by constantly breeding tight (without picking your strongest bitches) you'll double up on the feminine influence. The same stands for dogs (masculinity) , keep an eye out for it, I've seen it with my own eyes with a line that's nowhere near as tight as the one I keep now.

So what if you have several sisters working dilly, an average sized bitch is the best worker,  a few weaklings (beginning to come through) and a few big/strong bitches. Are you saying believe in the blood and ignore the best and breed off the best of the bigger sisters? When you see these issues arising would you not be better off breeding off the best bitch (obviously providing she's not a weakling which would rarely if ever be  the case) with a dog of the same line but enough of an outcross? ie. Stop breeding so tight!

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On 3/28/2018 at 22:00, tank34 said:

Just reread your post ūüĎć fat man¬†say the bitch did fail after her pups would you have kept the pups to see they worked out for you with you knowing your breeding an not having a bitch to breed from at the time¬†

Probably would have ran them on as we had very little at the time and as they were kept among ourselves if they didn't work out that was that and they be going no further.

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I always breed from the best bitch possible,  if it was weak in size and bone I either wouldn't breed from it or I'd use a dog that might rectifythe problem.

I've just bred out of a good strong bitch, the biggest in her litter, I waited until she was 7 years old because I didn't need to take from her. I bred her dam first but only got one dog pup, I took the plunge and took a litter from the daughter too.

The bitches I've seen and the bitch I kept back are small, not tiny but small for this line. The bitch I've got I'm happy with, she's the same stamp and size of her grandam,  if she makes as good as her I'll be happy but I'll have to go to trial and error in the next generation.  None of us know what we're going to get truth be known, as you all know "you only see the weddings not the funerals" !

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I'm all over it FD ūüėā

I'm all but finished in the game, it's time to pass on the torch and let someone else have the headache. 

If we can leave it as good as we found it's not been a waste of time  and effort. 

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All good sound advice but how many honestly follow it,truth be how many are breeding out of quality digging bitches lets be honest theres not that many about and a lot of lads settle for breeding of hunt bitches rather than proper digging bitches and a lot of lines dont produce many good bitches for this reason

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A lot of these top Terriermen weren't sticking to their own rules of grafting 5 seasons before breeding. If they did they wouldn't of been able to churn out large numbers of pups like they did. A lot of them didn't care who the pups went to either as long as they       Got the wad of cash. Some of them still created decent lines too so maybe it boils down to the root stock they started with and a good dose of luck. They only got found out when there was too much of their stuff about but then they had the option of blaming the new owners for not working or breeding them right. I bet there is not many men who maintained 2 successful lines in their yard that were completely unrelated to each other. I remember a top terrier man       Saying he would have no issue breeding a litter from an 18 month old bitch that had only 2 or 3 digs done because he liked the way she worked and he knew the blood behind her inside out. Most wouldn't agree with that but it worked for him. I bet most men if they only had 1 bitch left in their yard would do the same rather than lose the whole line forever. Interesting thread anyway. 

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4 hours ago, task said:

All good sound advice but how many honestly follow it,truth be how many are breeding out of quality digging bitches lets be honest theres not that many about and a lot of lads settle for breeding of hunt bitches rather than proper digging bitches and a lot of lines dont produce many good bitches for this reason

I think a lot of lads overlook the importance of quality digging bitches. How long can a line last if it isn’t producing decent bitches. I’ve heard it muttered more than once from people I thought would of new better that bitches are for breeding and dogs are for digging. 

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I personally prefer bitchs to dogs and always have. I have at present 4 reliable bitchs and 1 old fell type dog.I think and its only my opinion that good digging bitchs are way harder come by than dogs. I've often hear lads chatting about this dog and that dog but very rarely do you hear about good bitchs and I also believe that their should be no difference work wise between both dogs maybe a bit stronger but one should be as eager as the other to get a job done some will disagree but that's my take on it.

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To be able to say you have got a good working line,  the bitches need to be able to work to the same high standard as the dog's,,  if they don't then there's something wrong,,,

Not every one is going to turn out to be a star, but the bitches must be bloody good worker's or if they aren't , don't breed from them!!! 

 

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