Labour Leadership Election

[BGD 6,385]

Read the Beveridge report son

 

And who implemented the changes proposed in Beveridge report and made the changes to the health proposals that established the NHS as we know it? Was it a Labour government backed by the labour movement? I think you'll find it was, son.

[mushroom 12,393]

???????

 

So it was liberals who came up with idea then

[BGD 6,385]

 

So it was liberals who came up with idea then

 

Don't think you'd find many people that would deny Sir William Beveridge was a great man but you can't ignore the fact it was the labour movement that got the changes proposed by his report implemented or the fact that Aneurin Bevan was instrumental in the creation of the NHS as we know it.

[mushroom 12,393]

Fuuck me you would argue that black was fluorescent green.

 

Sorry mate you're wrong liberals came up with it and pushed it. Labour hijacked the idea for political gain and then took it to its conclusion.

[BGD 6,385]

Yep OK sure pal rewirte history all you want, doesn't make it true It's was implemented by a Labour government and pushed for by the labour movement, that doesn't take anything away from the Liberals who were also involved.

 

The proposals for a health service in the Beveridge report look nothing like what we call the NHS anyway, that's down to Bevan. I'm starting to wonder if you've ever read it TBH

[green lurchers 16,372]

hes always right in a leftie sort of way

[BGD 6,385]

hes always right in a leftie sort of way

 

No I'm always left

[WILF 44,334]

The NHS......what a success story that turned into huh ! Lol

[green lurchers 16,372]

 

hes always right in a leftie sort of way

 

No I'm always left

 

but never right ? lol

[BGD 6,385]

 

 

hes always right in a leftie sort of way

 

No I'm always left

 

but never right ? lol

 

 

Don't think many on here would disagree with that

[WILF 44,334]

 

I have said for years, if political parties were serious about social mobility, getting people off welfare, having a good health service that was free to the neediest people in society, get serious about recycling, cut personal and national debt, then they would do away with national insurance tomorrow, make the tax rate 10 or 15 % across the board, do away council tax and all the other stealth charges and put the money and the responsibility back in the hands of people.

That way, the "working man" gets to keep the fruit of his labours.

Means test the health care, look after the genuinely sick and disabled, encourage marriage by granting further tax breaks in order to preserve family structures, do away with groups like the commission for racial equality........discourage diversity and promote inclusion and unity instead.

The whole fecking system is arse upwards at the moment.

 

Not really the position a social democrat party should be arguing though is it? Ideally we'd see a return to real socialist values in the Labour party and a Conservative party with values similar to what you've outlined instead of the race to the centre neoliberalism shite we've been stuck with.

 

Why not?.....if it's the people's party why not trust the people ?......put the power back in the hands of people?

What they have all been doing and done so far clearly isn't working is it ?

[BGD 6,385]

 

 

I have said for years, if political parties were serious about social mobility, getting people off welfare, having a good health service that was free to the neediest people in society, get serious about recycling, cut personal and national debt, then they would do away with national insurance tomorrow, make the tax rate 10 or 15 % across the board, do away council tax and all the other stealth charges and put the money and the responsibility back in the hands of people.

That way, the "working man" gets to keep the fruit of his labours.

Means test the health care, look after the genuinely sick and disabled, encourage marriage by granting further tax breaks in order to preserve family structures, do away with groups like the commission for racial equality........discourage diversity and promote inclusion and unity instead.

The whole fecking system is arse upwards at the moment.

Not really the position a social democrat party should be arguing though is it? Ideally we'd see a return to real socialist values in the Labour party and a Conservative party with values similar to what you've outlined instead of the race to the centre neoliberalism shite we've been stuck with.

Why not?.....if it's the people's party why not trust the people ?......put the power back in the hands of people?

What they have all been doing and done so far clearly isn't working is it ?

 

 

Because they're supposed to be a democratic socialist party so should follow democratic socialist ideals? If you don't like those ideals the party isn't for you, simple as that.

 

You can argue whether democratic socialism is the best way forward for the country or not but the Labour party isn't the organisation to be making those arguments, that's for their opposition to do.

 

It's like if UKIP started campaigning for mass immigration and rejoining the EU, it would be a betrayal of their founding principles.

Edited July 14, 2016 by BGD

[Nicepix 5,650]

I really, really wish that there could be a socialist party in the way that it was in the Wilson, Callaghan, Healey era. I gave up on it when Kinnock took over and am still a little suspicious about the Smith and Cooke deaths. I said right from the very start that Blair was a Tory plant. They were unelectable and so he, backed by Murdoch and co. took over the shambles that was the Labour Party and turned it into a psuedo-Tory party. It has never been the same since. Ed Milliband and Ed Balls are not Labour people. They are just using it as an alternative to gain power. Corbyn might be the left's favourite, but in the real world I tend to sadly believe that socialism has had its time and we are entering a long period with parties sticking to middle ground politics.

[mushroom 12,393]

Yep OK sure pal rewirte history all you want, doesn't make it true It's was implemented by a Labour government and pushed for by the labour movement, that doesn't take anything away from the Liberals who were also involved.

 

The proposals for a health service in the Beveridge report look nothing like what we call the NHS anyway, that's down to Bevan. I'm starting to wonder if you've ever read it TBH

Pointless arguing with an idiot just to prove there's two in the room. Believe what you want son I'll stay on the side of facts

[WILF 44,334]

 

 

 

I have said for years, if political parties were serious about social mobility, getting people off welfare, having a good health service that was free to the neediest people in society, get serious about recycling, cut personal and national debt, then they would do away with national insurance tomorrow, make the tax rate 10 or 15 % across the board, do away council tax and all the other stealth charges and put the money and the responsibility back in the hands of people.

That way, the "working man" gets to keep the fruit of his labours.

Means test the health care, look after the genuinely sick and disabled, encourage marriage by granting further tax breaks in order to preserve family structures, do away with groups like the commission for racial equality........discourage diversity and promote inclusion and unity instead.

The whole fecking system is arse upwards at the moment.

 

Not really the position a social democrat party should be arguing though is it? Ideally we'd see a return to real socialist values in the Labour party and a Conservative party with values similar to what you've outlined instead of the race to the centre neoliberalism shite we've been stuck with.

Why not?.....if it's the people's party why not trust the people ?......put the power back in the hands of people?

What they have all been doing and done so far clearly isn't working is it ?

Because they're supposed to be a democratic socialist party so should follow democratic socialist ideals? If you don't like those ideals the party isn't for you, simple as that.

 

You can argue whether democratic socialism is the best way forward for the country or not but the Labour party isn't the organisation to be making those arguments, that's for their opposition to do.

 

It's like if UKIP started campaigning for mass immigration and rejoining the EU, it would be a betrayal of their founding principles.

Question for you mate, do you think that the majority of people in the UK are just too affluent for the old labour, socialist principals to be relevant any longer ?........a bit like nice pix said above, all that power to the worker and wealth redistribution is yesterday's news?

I mean comparatively speaking, people in general are rich to a greater or lesser extent.......certainly much richer than when old labour was at the height of it's power.