Brindle Terriers

[neil cooney 10,415]

 

there is no brindle in pure pats that i can assure you

No such thing as a pure Patterdale

 

Says who ?

Not picking on you personally Downsouth but there's plenty of folk who say that the black working terrier known as the Patterdale is not pure.

If you want to use the K.C. definition of pure (not that I'd have any interest in the KC but when it comes to purebred it seems their word is gospel.) is that no other breed has been introduced in 9 generations.

Now, if you think there's not lines / families of black terriers out there that are nothing more than black working terrier to black working terrier for countless generations then I suggest you widen your horizons.

Don't confuse standards with breeding. Having perfect ears, tail carriage etc. etc. is not pure breeding, it's standards and that only applies in the show ring and the sales ring, so to speak.

But there are families of black terriers out there that haven't had bull, russell or sealyham blood introduced in several generations, thus making them pure.

If you want to be exact and say that any breed that's had a outcross way back in it's pedigree can't be pure then there's actually no such thing as a pure bred dog.

The black working terrier known as the Patterdale is most certainly the most common type worked now a days and IMO is used more by those who take terrierwork seriously than any other breed/type and to just refer to like it's some sort of thrown together mongeral sort is IMO an insult.

[Bryan 1,361]

Says who ?

 

Not picking on you personally Downsouth but there's plenty of folk who say that the black working terrier known as the Patterdale is not pure.

If you want to use the K.C. definition of pure (not that I'd have any interest in the KC but when it comes to purebred it seems their word is gospel.) is that no other breed has been introduced in 9 generations.

Now, if you think there's not lines / families of black terriers out there that are nothing more than black working terrier to black working terrier for countless generations then I suggest you widen your horizons.

Don't confuse standards with breeding. Having perfect ears, tail carriage etc. etc. is not pure breeding, it's standards and that only applies in the show ring and the sales ring, so to speak.

But there are families of black terriers out there that haven't had bull, russell or sealyham blood introduced in several generations, thus making them pure.

If you want to be exact and say that any breed that's had a outcross way back in it's pedigree can't be pure then there's actually no such thing as a pure bred dog.

The black working terrier known as the Patterdale is most certainly the most common type worked now a days and IMO is used more by those who take terrierwork seriously than any other breed/type and to just refer to like it's some sort of thrown together mongeral sort is IMO an insult.

 

 

Pure Patterdale, surely it's a line bred bull cross by now?

[onion jonny 526]

neil who said a patterdale had to be black.

[neil cooney 10,415]

neil who said a patterdale had to be black.

No one, you're right.

[neil cooney 10,415]

 

Says who ?

 

Not picking on you personally Downsouth but there's plenty of folk who say that the black working terrier known as the Patterdale is not pure.

If you want to use the K.C. definition of pure (not that I'd have any interest in the KC but when it comes to purebred it seems their word is gospel.) is that no other breed has been introduced in 9 generations.

Now, if you think there's not lines / families of black terriers out there that are nothing more than black working terrier to black working terrier for countless generations then I suggest you widen your horizons.

Don't confuse standards with breeding. Having perfect ears, tail carriage etc. etc. is not pure breeding, it's standards and that only applies in the show ring and the sales ring, so to speak.

But there are families of black terriers out there that haven't had bull, russell or sealyham blood introduced in several generations, thus making them pure.

If you want to be exact and say that any breed that's had a outcross way back in it's pedigree can't be pure then there's actually no such thing as a pure bred dog.

The black working terrier known as the Patterdale is most certainly the most common type worked now a days and IMO is used more by those who take terrierwork seriously than any other breed/type and to just refer to like it's some sort of thrown together mongeral sort is IMO an insult.

 

 

Pure Patterdale, surely it's a line bred bull cross by now?

 

Not necessarily . There's lines can be traced back to terriers from the 70s with no bull in them. Then there's lines that had bull put into them years ago but the line would have been brought back to the terrier not the bull.

[Corkman 944]

Sure everyone knows there is bull in "pure patterdales". Even a man that would be considered a founder of today's black smooth dogs and close to breays/buck stock admitted putting bull into his dogs.

If it looks like a duck then.....

 

Unless you think like ole Plummer and try to create a purebred dog that already exists from a mix of breeds?

 

K.C. here we come.

[eastcoast 3,729]

By sheer coincidence the famous photo of the late Mr. Hodgsons' dog appeared in last week's TCW. I think the brindle colouring gene is in the make up of the modern working terrier types. From bull blood but also from more primitive terrier type dogs that maybe the modern Scottish breeds are closer to. It's always been a sign of cur blood in " English " terriers IMO so was never welcomed. Not so much fashion but just personal taste ?

 

The Russell being a pure breed pablo esc ? Of course it is. Neil Cooney defines it well. A bunch of terriers were registered with the K.C. in 1988 ( ? ) as Parson Jack Russell Terriers. Then the registry was closed. From that day on until the end of time every dog bred from them is a pure Parson Russell Terrier. What was in the make up these finest examples of the breed that allowed them to close the gene pool because they had reached perfection ? The Middleton Lakeland was openly and honestly admitted to but the K.C. Fox Terrier wasn't. But I think you already know that Pablo, not having a dig. As long as they don't have brindle markings they should be ok.

 

Regards

[Corkman 944]

Maybe there is scotty in black dogs too.

[stop.end 4,079]

all terriers are/ will have been a mix of X's then bred from over many generations by men who will have studied that X and kept dates times... and owners unless into coin & misinterpretations of standard , would then weed out the dreamers and progression and IF further matings to the terriers in the yard of the 1st outcross showed more potential than dentrimental would be kept solely between the tight yards!...

when going to men who like to keep a line working for work, never once did I hear hes a patterdale youd have known what you were going to X a potential mating too... well before you got to the mans yard surely.... and if I heard hes a pure patt by such and such id miss the bitch and drive home!

[taz2010 1,297]

being from cumbria and growing up near patterdale i can tell you there are plenty of lads with the origional patterdale fell dog or whatever ya want to call them to many top breeders added bull in the mix and fxxked the patterdale up,but i know 4 lads who have kept the same dog for over 40 years so answer to everyone there is still pure patts around

[p3d 879]

This is the "original Patterdale terrier".

It looks nothing like the dogs with that name today.

 

 

Its funny how there are no photographs of smooth Black working terriers before the 70's.

If anyone has a photograph of a SMOOTH black working terrier perhaps they could post it on here.

 

When Lucas wrote his book in the 30's, he listed every type of working terrier known to man.

Shelbourne terriers and rare welsh types , even terriers from the US and Africa.

 

BUT not a single paragraph of a smooth black working terrier.

Strange really.

 

Lets call a spade a spade........the fell terrier was crossed with a black staff.

There is a photograph of the black staff with white chest markings out there with guys who visited the breeders yard.

That produced a smooth black Bull X Fell that worked well.

Hard bitten , excellent dogs and they became popular.

 

The first "Patterdales" seem to have appeared in Ireland around the 80's.

If they were around before that, Irish terriermen would have imported them.

[king 11,664]

This is the "original Patterdale terrier".

It looks nothing like the dogs with that name today.

 

patterdalefromRichardClapham.jpg

 

Its funny how there are no photographs of smooth Black working terriers before the 70's.

If anyone has a photograph of a SMOOTH black working terrier perhaps they could post it on here.

 

When Lucas wrote his book in the 30's, he listed every type of working terrier known to man.

Shelbourne terriers and rare welsh types , even terriers from the US and Africa.

 

BUT not a single paragraph of a smooth black working terrier.

Strange really.

 

Lets call a spade a spade........the fell terrier was crossed with a black staff.

There is a photograph of the black staff with white chest markings out there with guys who visited the breeders yard.

That produced a smooth black Bull X Fell that worked well.

Hard bitten , excellent dogs and they became popular.

 

The first "Patterdales" seem to have appeared in Ireland around the 80's.

If they were around before that, Irish terriermen would have imported them.

So could to days patterdales be defined as a bull X.p3d...

[p3d 879]

 

This is the "original Patterdale terrier".

It looks nothing like the dogs with that name today.

 

patterdalefromRichardClapham.jpg

 

Its funny how there are no photographs of smooth Black working terriers before the 70's.

If anyone has a photograph of a SMOOTH black working terrier perhaps they could post it on here.

 

When Lucas wrote his book in the 30's, he listed every type of working terrier known to man.

Shelbourne terriers and rare welsh types , even terriers from the US and Africa.

 

BUT not a single paragraph of a smooth black working terrier.

Strange really.

 

Lets call a spade a spade........the fell terrier was crossed with a black staff.

There is a photograph of the black staff with white chest markings out there with guys who visited the breeders yard.

That produced a smooth black Bull X Fell that worked well.

Hard bitten , excellent dogs and they became popular.

 

The first "Patterdales" seem to have appeared in Ireland around the 80's.

If they were around before that, Irish terriermen would have imported them.

So could to days patterdales be defined as a bull X.p3d...

 

 

King,

 

I don't know if I would call them a Bull X, IMO They have Bull blood in them and some strains more than others.

What defines them is their ability to work, and men who have them in their yard know better then anyone how good these dogs are.

 

My opinion is that a terrier strain that has bull X in its past does not make them any less a terrier.

 

Brindle in a strain gives a clue that bull is in the ancestry, Very tight smooth coats are another clue.

Head and jaw size are also a giveaway. Let us not fool ourselves that the black terriers today are anything to do with the fells or fell packs from the past.

 

Plummer in his book "The Fell Terrier" crafted a story that was a good read.

In particular if you look at the photographs of Tommy Dobson in the book you would think Tommy started the

Fell terrier in his kennels. Plummer was selective with those shots.

 

Take a look at the photos below.

This is Tommy with his terrier s from 1890 (a young Willie Porter behind him) to sometime into the early 1900's.

 

Not a black terrier in sight!.......but a lot of other terrier types.

 

 

 

 

 

 

The last photograph is of a very early staff type of terrier (1910)

Not the fat things we see today but an athletic dog that would not be out of place in the pit.

It is possible that this type of terrier was used and would have brought the brindle coat colour into the lines.

 

[king 11,664]

Some excellent pics there p3d.im not clued up at all on Patterdale history.but it's posts like you've just put up that are invaluable to anyone interested in patterdales. So saying there's staff type blood in them.then obviously there's got to be certain lines out there carrying pbt blood. Which might contribute greatly to certain Patterdale lines being to hard for there own good.

[p3d 879]

Some excellent pics there p3d.im not clued up at all on Patterdale history.but it's posts like you've just put up that are invaluable to anyone interested in patterdales. So saying there's staff type blood in them.then obviously there's got to be certain lines out there carrying pbt blood. Which might contribute greatly to certain Patterdale lines being to hard for there own good.

 

King,

 

You are not alone, nobody is clued up on Patterdale history, IMO it does not exist as history should at least be older than one mans lifetime.

The men who created the smooth black terrier strain are still alive.

 

Right now what these men know as the truth is NEWS.

When they are gone, it may become history.

 

I met one of these men at a show in Ireland recently, a gent as far as I could see.

He had a van with pups for sale, no problem, if he wants to make a few pound from his dogs thats his choice.

 

But it struck me that it would be great if that man or his friends could write everything down before it is too late.

That would be writing history for terriermen in the future.