(Tenacity ) ?

[bird 9,594]

had look at the other page regards (why the bull), well got thinking what the other xs before the bull was brought in, could come near its (Tenacity).? i know what xs were about back then , having seen quite lot of differnt xs in 25 years+ since ive been into lurchers . colliexgreyxdeerhoundxgreys saw few of them not bad on most quarry, they were quite popular so were gsd x grey same as my pup, in the 70-80s spoke to steve Barton and he still uses this x today .Most of the dogs i saw were more of lurcher to lurcher bred dogs and doing most quarry, and people were happy with them . But there no getting away from the fact that a bit of the (right bull) in any lurcher x (definitely) had that bit of extra Tenacity = guts,drive, call it what you will .! for any quarry big or small . I saw my 1st bullx late 70s, and that was only 1/4, but you could see even back then that it added that bit of extra somthing, maybe it was always going to happen in the lurcher game. The nearest i got to it i think was with a 3/8 collie 5/8 grey Blaze big 26in dog, had him in the late 80s he would tackle any quarry very full on type dog, was like some of my other bullxs that i had back then. just food for thought as they say .

[Bossie 90]

A working bread malinois/ dutch shepherd or gsd will have no problem matching the tenacity a bull has and outdo it with some brain in the mix as well. But than you know this since you've got a few very nice dogs. With such a cross in my mind I don't understand what a bull would offer that such a cross can't.

Like I've already mentioned in the Why Bull thread, I'm curious and would like to know what was used back in the days (1850-1950) to give that punch. I presume they used to run bigger things and things with teath which might have required something extra.

 

Maybe some more food for thought, is it possible that the dogs which have been used on bigger things 75 years ago might be from better working stock and selected in such a way that there was no need for something extra?

 

Up to the aprox the 1930's hunting with sighthounds mainly on hare was a sport/way of hunting over here as well. After that they banned it. Back than the Friesian Hazewind/harehunter was popular. It loooked like a greyhound with a bit of a jacket and exceptionally big rear quarters. I've read some old (100 years) articles about the way it was used in the first 25 years of the previous century. This article also mentioned shepherd dogs being used in breeding a more capable sighthound. Among the true huntsmen these crosses weren't very popular, they were considered to be poachers dogs. The Dutch Shepherd or something like it (like the knpv crosses nowadays) might have been used in this crossing since it is known to accompany the farmers/countrymen in the early twentieth century not only on work at the farm but also during the hunt, probably poaching.

Edited February 10, 2013 by Bossie

[bunnys 1,228]

had look at the other page regards (why the bull), well got thinking what the other xs before the bull was brought in, could come near its (Tenacity).? i know what xs were about back then , having seen quite lot of differnt xs in 25 years+ since ive been into lurchers . colliexgreyxdeerhoundxgreys saw few of them not bad on most quarry, they were quite popular so were gsd x grey same as my pup, in the 70-80s spoke to steve Barton and he still uses this x today .Most of the dogs i saw were more of lurcher to lurcher bred dogs and doing most quarry, and people were happy with them . But there no getting away from the fact that a bit of the (right bull) in any lurcher x (definitely) had that bit of extra Tenacity = guts,drive, call it what you will .! for any quarry big or small . I saw my 1st bullx late 70s, and that was only 1/4, but you could see even back then that it added that bit of extra somthing, maybe it was always going to happen in the lurcher game. The nearest i got to it i think was with a 3/8 collie 5/8 grey Blaze big 26in dog, had him in the late 80s he would tackle any quarry very full on type dog, was like some of my other bullxs that i had back then. just food for thought as they say . totally agree with thee ray, the little all important ingredient does and willl make a difference , i feel when one as the desire and the respect for sheer grit tenacity etc its pretty much difficult for any breed type to run the bull wwor wheaton lines that can be found close . there will be types that can give thee this quality but not as consistently as some of the great terrier lines . atb bunnys.

[j1985 1,983]

A working bread malinois/ dutch shepherd or gsd will have no problem matching the tenacity a bull has and outdo it with some brain in the mix as well. But than you know this since you've got a few very nice dogs. With such a cross in my mind I don't understand what a bull would offer that such a cross can't.

Like I've already mentioned in the Why Bull thread, I'm curious and would like to know what was used back in the days (1850-1950) to give that punch. I presume they used to run bigger things and things with teath which might have required something extra.

 

Up to the aprox the 1930's hunting with sighthounds mainly on hare was a sport/way of hunting over here as well. After that they banned it. Back than the Friesian Hazewind/harehunter was popular. It loooked like a greyhound with a bit of a jacket and exceptionally big rear quarters. I've read some old (100 years) articles about the way it was used in the first 25 years of the previous century. This article also mentioned shepherd dogs being used in breeding a more capable sighthound. Among the true huntsmen these crosses weren't very popular, they were considered to be poachers dogs. The Dutch Shepherd or something like it (like the knpv crosses nowadays) might have been used in this crossing since it is known to accompany the farmers/countrymen in the early twentieth century not only on work at the farm but also during the hunt, probably poaching.

Maybe it might match it for tenacity and drive but I bet you'd get a much higher percentage of dogs that threw in the towel when the going got tough.

 

Herders haven't been bred to take the punishment bulls can!

[Bossie 90]

 

A working bread malinois/ dutch shepherd or gsd will have no problem matching the tenacity a bull has and outdo it with some brain in the mix as well. But than you know this since you've got a few very nice dogs. With such a cross in my mind I don't understand what a bull would offer that such a cross can't.

Like I've already mentioned in the Why Bull thread, I'm curious and would like to know what was used back in the days (1850-1950) to give that punch. I presume they used to run bigger things and things with teath which might have required something extra.

 

Up to the aprox the 1930's hunting with sighthounds mainly on hare was a sport/way of hunting over here as well. After that they banned it. Back than the Friesian Hazewind/harehunter was popular. It loooked like a greyhound with a bit of a jacket and exceptionally big rear quarters. I've read some old (100 years) articles about the way it was used in the first 25 years of the previous century. This article also mentioned shepherd dogs being used in breeding a more capable sighthound. Among the true huntsmen these crosses weren't very popular, they were considered to be poachers dogs. The Dutch Shepherd or something like it (like the knpv crosses nowadays) might have been used in this crossing since it is known to accompany the farmers/countrymen in the early twentieth century not only on work at the farm but also during the hunt, probably poaching.

Maybe it might match it for tenacity and drive but I bet you'd get a much higher percentage of dogs that threw in the towel when the going got tough.

 

Herders haven't been bred to take the punishment bulls can!

 

I'm not sure I buy this, especially the malinois is known to love things that bite back. For example in KNPV breed as in the before 3 mentioned breeds do not exist, they use bloodlines which usually incorporate all three of them. There is very strict selection based on working ability and little wastage for what they do. This working instinct based selection is also a very large contributing factor to how healthy these lines are.

It would be much harder to find a bull from proper working lines nowadays. Which in my opinion is exactly what will prevent the dogs from throwing in the towel.

 

 

I'm not trying to promote a certain breed but I think the things the bull brings to the table according to contemporary thought is overrated, as in other breeds would not be able to supply this.... I guess we all use what we have locally/nationally available. I've never ever seen a proper bull over here. Only kappa or Adidas 3 stripe youngsters which use it as a penis extension. I would very much like to see a proper working one as I've always been passionate for bulls. Working with a bull might also get you into trouble over here.

 

Off topic: To be ownest I don't understand why people over here don't hunt with them more. It's so easy to buy a proper working line KNPV pup for 150-200 pounds. A descent hunting allrounder or retriever pup will cost 3-4 times that amount. You can teach the shepher almost every trick the hunting breed will perform except from pointing.

Edited February 10, 2013 by Bossie

[bunnys 1,228]

the old cleshay one forgets sheer impervious to pain will and only be found in the terrier types . taking deer preban dont need a out and out terrier type attitude but more of brain power and the know how which one will find in sheperd types ,i have a old friend trains mallis alsations and the xs of the 2 they are the ultimate for what theyre bred for and will give thee very good animals for work from greys etc. if i were to keep animals for work preban and heavy quarry were my aim the animal i would choose would have a degree of bull in the blood and preferably from a line of the same , now this is not to say malls sheperds stc wont do a job they will but not as cosistently as the right bull blood foxes to those sheperds who choose to take them and like them will be easy for em shake the libving daylights out of em bull xs aproach the quarry differently and grab some crush some shake sonme snap the spine many different methods employed , but the sheperd types rely on tearing shaking they are more inclined or s ahall we say prefer not to take punishment . the brain to employed to decapitate another creature from good bull lines isoh so differently than a animal that takes stuff how shall we say it cleanly ,without breaking the lets say carcass up . of brain and brawn will also be got together and on these occasions one will the keeper of some animal . atb bunnys.

[fitchet 788]

The bull/greyhound is an easy dog to keep. Intense in work but laid back in the kennel. A dog with Mali blood in it would be useless to most because of there intensity wich from what I've seen is 24/7. For me if you get a good bull/greyhound thats made of the right stuff then you can take any British quarry. Can the same be said of of a Mali or Dutch shepherd x ?

[bunnys 1,228]

The bull/greyhound is an easy dog to keep. Intense in work but laid back in the kennel. A dog with Mali blood in it would be useless to most because of there intensity wich from what I've seen is 24/7. For me if you get a good bull/greyhound thats made of the right stuff then you can take any British quarry. Can the same be said of of a Mali or Dutch shepherd x ? this may be one of the traits that some would not like when on about malls they have so much high energy and need to burn it off and have daily stimulation the stamina effect that can be got is a plus if one uses only a drop say a quarter would be usefull to those who seek to run long hard nights and drain the batteries , . atb bunnys.

[bunnys 1,228]

 

The bull/greyhound is an easy dog to keep. Intense in work but laid back in the kennel. A dog with Mali blood in it would be useless to most because of there intensity wich from what I've seen is 24/7. For me if you get a good bull/greyhound thats made of the right stuff then you can take any British quarry. Can the same be said of of a Mali or Dutch shepherd x ? this may be one of the traits that some would not like when on about malls they have so much high energy and need to burn it off and have daily stimulation the stamina effect that can be got is a plus if one uses only a drop say a quarter would be usefull to those who seek to run long hard nights and drain the batteries , . atb bunnys. a good malli xs owned by an aquaintance bred by himself takes all and i mean all quarry included , not saying he would be as good as the very best bull xs on all quarry but does the job now here a ting there be more rubbish in the bull xs being bred up and down the country than ought else the saluki lurcher suffered the same afflication preban, now any one breding from working malls from established kennels can rest in good faith and know they have a chance . atb bunnys.

[woz 260]

The bull/greyhound is an easy dog to keep. Intense in work but laid back in the kennel. A dog with Mali blood in it would be useless to most because of there intensity wich from what I've seen is 24/7. For me if you get a good bull/greyhound thats made of the right stuff then you can take any British quarry. Can the same be said of of a Mali or Dutch shepherd x ?

Yes a propper Mali can take all British game.I have one hear that iv started properly this season...she excels at man work and I'm undoing 3 years training as to not chase wildlife...she runs and trusts the beam.don't hunt up or hedge crash..she's a little cobby for rabbits but tries...

Now the down sides..

The dog don't feel pain when In drive...

She never switchs off...ever.

Iv had (propper APBT) back in the day and there far nicer to live with than a decent Mali...

You can't make a mistake training a Mali...

When I was patrolling every night and training five days a week a Mali is the ultimate dog now I'm not she's a nightmare to live with and causes me so much stress and anxiety you can't relax with the dog.....I'm going to put a straight greyhound over the Mali to produce a half cross if all goes to plan I'll put a greyhound accross that to water down the mal and produce something very useful.....

 

If you like mali's for what they are now is the time to get some stock....the show and police are starting to get into them and in ten years they will be a shadow of what they are now...the breed is well on the road to being ruined..........

[bunnys 1,228]

thought about it mesen but with my age ans all dont think i could do a f1 justice ,butbeen told aof a straight alli doing double figures on the rabs and other gear and also attack ttrained etc he is a the training kennels soon to be rehomed to work 8oo quid atb bunnys.

[bunnys 1,228]

 

The bull/greyhound is an easy dog to keep. Intense in work but laid back in the kennel. A dog with Mali blood in it would be useless to most because of there intensity wich from what I've seen is 24/7. For me if you get a good bull/greyhound thats made of the right stuff then you can take any British quarry. Can the same be said of of a Mali or Dutch shepherd x ?

Yes a propper Mali can take all British game.I have one hear that iv started properly this season...she excels at man work and I'm undoing 3 years training as to not chase wildlife...she runs and trusts the beam.don't hunt up or hedge crash..she's a little cobby for rabbits but tries...

Now the down sides..

The dog don't feel pain when In drive...

She never switchs off...ever.

Iv had (propper APBT) back in the day and there far nicer to live with than a decent Mali...

You can't make a mistake training a Mali...

When I was patrolling every night and training five days a week a Mali is the ultimate dog now I'm not she's a nightmare to live with and causes me so much stress and anxiety you can't relax with the dog.....I'm going to put a straight greyhound over the Mali to produce a half cross if all goes to plan I'll put a greyhound accross that to water down the mal and produce something very useful.....

 

If you like mali's for what they are now is the time to get some stock....the show and police are starting to get into them and in ten years they will be a shadow of what they are now...the breed is well on the road to being ruined......... was offered a welp f1 xs alsation ,these by all accounts have lots a drive etc. atb bunnys..

[woz 260]

Gsd x mal are becoming very popular and a real handy dog....seen a few and they are great...BUT mal blood is getting watered down......I cant say feck all cuz I'm putting greyhound blood into the mix

[deerdogs 394]

was just about to start a thread about mali x's. any chance of a pic of your mal woz?

[bunnys 1,228]

Gsd x mal are becoming very popular and a real handy dog....seen a few and they are great...BUT mal blood is getting watered down......I cant say feck all cuz I'm putting greyhound blood into the mix

seen thissxs bred five yrs aback and seen a dog from the xs and he takes ought not for the faint hearted but saying that thinking on the state of most base breed today in the uk , if one as time on there side , one would i have no doubt be able to produce very decent lurchers from them with selection and the introduction of may be the odd other breed than just grey . possibly deerhound would be my choice just a thought atb bunnys.