Another school shooting in America

[Born Hunter 17,639]

6 hours ago, ChrisJones said:

Moving on...

Firstly. If anyone wants to read the 73-page Homeland Security Manual, First Responder Guide For Improving Survivability in Improvised Explosive Devices And/Or Active Shooter Incidents, you'll see that the emphasis is on contain rather than assault. This content is quite ambiguous and I'm sure that all LE bodies have differences in procedure.

 

Curiosity and rigour got the better of me, ive read what i believe are the pertinent parts. Have a missed something mate, it's all about first responders, ie paramedics, and not LE? Only really mentions LE out of necessity because both need to liaise.

[Meece 1,957]

6 hours ago, ChrisJones said:

Well said, sir. Those that don't understand the support this amendment has are the same people that didn't think The Donald would get elected.

The Republicans are in a bit of tricky spot here. They're looking at a whipping in the November midterms and have been on damage control for quite a bit. Inaction on this issue will see them punished by the opposition. Too much action on this will see them punished by their supporters. They'll have to enact something that will buffer a middle ground and it's something they just don't want to handle. I'm in agreement though, I'm also interested in just how this going to play out and how mainstream media narrative is both simultaneously fact and fiction depending on the politics of the consumer!

Moving on...

Firstly. If anyone wants to read the 73-page Homeland Security Manual, First Responder Guide For Improving Survivability in Improvised Explosive Devices And/Or Active Shooter Incidents, you'll see that the emphasis is on contain rather than assault. This content is quite ambiguous and I'm sure that all LE bodies have differences in procedure. It's kind of a double-edged sword though, IMHO. These are sworn officers and this is the day they trained for. However, as has been pointed about security biased sources, these incidents can take months and years of planning in order to be successful. I have a foot in both camps here and I wonder what my reaction would be? Would I be attempting to engage an unknown number of assailants in my old secondary school or would I be trying to get people to safety and be mindful of diversions and whether there are additional assailants waiting for such a thing to play out? Bottom line is until the bullets start flying you won't know and you'll hope your training is the quality that your muscle memory is going to revert to and I'm going to be looking for tourniquets rather than charging blindly into a building that I probably am not familiar with the layout. Pure speculation though and drawn from what ifs.

Secondly, Four Broward County deputies waited outside the school. Not just the one. They hid behind cars with their guns drawn. Coral Springs police arrived as backup and went straight in. They're investigating alleged inaction. It's also been reported that Broward County sheriffs department had received at least 18 calls in the past decade warning the that shooter was potentially dangerous. Five of those calls related specifically to stockpiling weapons. At least two counsellors assessed the shooter's mental health and decided not to act despite self-harming and suicide attempts. Broward County deputies made 39 visits to Cruz's house over a 7 year period.

At the risk of sounding like a broken record, I'm also looking at massive failures in the public sector for both law enforcement and social services.

While all eyes are focused on LE, here's the kicker. The police have no duty to protect the individual in the US. That's not a typo. They have a duty to protect the public as a whole but not the individual and the most often cited example of this is Warren Vs The District of Columbia and quite famously in this case where police barricaded themselves in a subway train while a member of the public subdued a maniac who went on a stabbing spree in NY's subway system. Their intervention is at will it seems... If they're under no obligation to intervene how would it be possible to repeal/restrict the 2A and if they cannot carry out their duties on a daily basis just how the hell is anyone expecting them to enforce/confiscate anything in the future?

Which is the elephant in the room and one of the reasons why the 2A is so passionately defended. If we can't trust the government why would we give up the right to protect ourselves from the government?

 

That post has got to go down as one of the best ever write ups . Its  balanced, knowledgable and written without any personaĺ attack. Its just a statement of how it is. My take on this is how much madness there is in a situation where virtually everyone can have almost any weapon, within reason ? ( because they can.) Its similar to everyone having the right to protect themselves from foreign aggression and be allowed to personally  have nuclear devices or chemical weapons. P.S. are American citizens allowed to have and carry on their person thIngs like  pepper spray or mace or electrical stun guns, like tazzers? Pps. The thing about armed officers waiting outside an incident is no different to what happened at Hungerford. Ryan walked around the streets killIng unsuspecting people and shooting up ambulance crews who were beIng sent Into the area whilst the police were being assembled at a holdIng centre miles away from the carnage on the streets. Every situation  is completely  different. This situation is so complex and a moving one that no amount of willie waving  or name calling will  affect the current mass shooting spree.  until the time comes when there are so  many multille shootings per day that civil war exists and the military go in and disarm everyone like they did when Louisiana got flooded the situation will remain  the same. Alĺ the time polititians take money from pressúre groups, government is distorted. In this incident guns were removed from public ownership.

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/09/09/us/nationalspecial/police-begin-seizing-guns-of-civilians.html?ribbon-ad-idx=2&rref=world&module=ArrowsNav&contentCollection=U.S.&action=swipe&region=FixedRight&pgtype=article

[ChrisJones 7,973]

7 hours ago, Born Hunter said:

Based on that and the Sheriffs decision to suspend his SRO for not acting is it not reasonable to assume his sheriff's dept has the policy of a lone deputy engaging the shooter?

I'm not 100% sure of their county's regs but it's highly probable looking at the way he's been suspended. He wasn't the only one there either which tips the scales against the LE for not acting and waiting for Coral Springs PD who went straight in.

6 hours ago, stumfelter said:

Is there no legislation in America to stop mentally disturbed people having access to guns? Over here they wouldn't let him have a spud gun.

Yes.

Federal Law.

18 U.S.C. § 922(d), it is unlawful for any person to sell or otherwise dispose of any firearm or ammunition to any person knowing or having reasonable cause to believe that such person “has been adjudicated as a mental defective or has been committed to any mental institution.” 

Florida's State Law.

Fla. Stat. Ann. §§ 790.065.

Upon receipt of a request for a criminal history record check, the Department of Law Enforcement shall, during the licensee’s call or by return call forthwith: Review any records available to determine if the potential buyer or transferee: Has been adjudicated mentally defective or has been committed to a mental institution by a court, and as a result is prohibited by state or federal law from purchasing a firearm.

Fla. Stat. Ann. § 790.06.

The Department of Agriculture and Consumer Services shall issue a license to carry concealed weapons or concealed firearms if the applicant: Has not been committed to a mental institution, under chapter 394 or similar laws of any other state.

In this case, there was certainly cause to not only refuse his purchases but have him sectioned. Failures at state and federal level all the way along here. It's not an excuse but when people call for new laws and repeals of constitutional law it's pertinent that existing laws haven't been enforced at all.

6 hours ago, Born Hunter said:

Curiosity and rigour got the better of me, ive read what i believe are the pertinent parts. Have a missed something mate, it's all about first responders, ie paramedics, and not LE? Only really mentions LE out of necessity because both need to liaise.

You're not missing anything, my friend. The document is a federal pamphlet that is issued to all potential first responders but you've been completely correct in this thread in regards to LE policy to engage. All LE policy varies slightly which is why it's so hard to nail down. The fact that four sheriff's deputies failed to intervene is unforgivable but given the task at hand, it's not clear whether they would have made much of a difference given their attitude and training. As Stiff's said it's not as easy as it looks with months of planning never mind as a reactive situation with literally thousands of variables.

Both you and Stiff are absolutely correct here. It's a paradox that no doubt will see galvanised attention in the coming weeks and months. Both private security and LE training will be massively affected.

5 hours ago, Meece said:

That post has got to go down as one of the best ever write ups . Its  balanced, knowledgable and written without any personaĺ attack. Its just a statement of how it is.

6

Thank you, sir. I appreciate the sentiment but I may have a slightly different perspective with my background. Also, there are too many partisan opinions on the issue that simply assign blame but there appear to be no real-world solutions forthcoming despite these continuing tragedies. One side says only the police should have guns. The other points and says look what these police officers didn't do with the guns they would have taken from us. It's a constitutional pickle.

I'll attempt to answer a couple of your questions but forgive me I've not had my morning's caffeinated beverage and it's 0746 at the typing of this particular sentence!

5 hours ago, Meece said:

My take on this is how much madness there is in a situation where virtually everyone can have almost any weapon, within reason ? ( because they can.) Its similar to everyone having the right to protect themselves from foreign aggression and be allowed to personally  have nuclear devices or chemical weapons. P.S. are American citizens allowed to have and carry on their person thIngs like  pepper spray or mace or electrical stun guns, like tazzers?

Federally yes but states, counties, and down to cities/municipalities have their own rules and regs depending on the location. What I can carry here in the state of Utah won't be allowed in California. What can be carried in California won't be legal in New York. You have a constitutional right to bear arms for your protection. It's an inalienable right and is treated as the same as free speech.

5 hours ago, Meece said:

The thing about armed officers waiting outside an incident is no different to what happened at Hungerford. Ryan walked around the streets killIng unsuspecting people and shooting up ambulance crews who were beIng sent Into the area whilst the police were being assembled at a holdIng centre miles away from the carnage on the streets.

True but it does seem that this particular LE's procedure was to engage judging by the suspension of the deputy. As both Born and Stiff have argued (both successfully IMHO) they were damned if they did and damned if they didn't but this was the day that they swore to deal with when they signed up for the job. The real pisser here is that local and federal LE had multiple incidents and reasons to intervene before this tragedy. They didn't.

5 hours ago, Meece said:

This situation is so complex and a moving one that no amount of willie waving  or name calling will  affect the current mass shooting spree.  until the time comes when there are so  many multille shootings per day that civil war exists and the military go in and disarm everyone like they did when Louisiana got flooded the situation will remain  the same. Alĺ the time polititians take money from pressúre groups, government is distorted. In this incident guns were removed from public ownership.

Agreed. Security is a problem and solution mechanism. It's neither cheap nor convenient. Simply wishing parts of the equation away doesn't happen in real life. Tragedies happen and solutions come through trial and error. How does it go? Plan A never survives the first contact.

Incidentally, Louisiana is still suffering the backlash from that unconstitutional action as it goes through the courts. Also, there was a law passed that strictly forbids federal agents from confiscating firearms during a disaster as a result of the illegal search and seizures in Louisiana.

Phew... That's an intense start to a Sunday morning.

Edited February 25, 2018 by ChrisJones

[Born Hunter 17,639]

10 minutes ago, ChrisJones said:

You're not missing anything, my friend. The document is a federal pamphlet that is issued to all potential first responders but you've been completely correct in this thread in regards to LE policy to engage. All LE policy varies slightly which is why it's so hard to nail down. The fact that four sheriff's deputies failed to intervene is unforgivable but given the task at hand, it's not clear whether they would have made much of a difference given their attitude and training. As Stiff's said it's not as easy as it looks with months of planning never mind as a reactive situation with literally thousands of variables.

Both you and Stiff are absolutely correct here. It's a paradox that no doubt will see galvanised attention in the coming weeks and months. Both private security and LE training will be massively affected.

Comprehensive post! Take it steady mate it's Sunday! 

Regarding what stiff and others have been saying I found this excerpt from that presntation quite pertinent.

"Here’s what happens if the scene is still active and an officer goes in. Sixty-two percent of the time, the officer shoots the attacker. Another 13 percent, the officer otherwise subdues the attacker. The remaining 25 percent of the time, the suspect kills himself. 

So 75 percent of the time when the solo officer goes in and the scene is still hot, the officer is taking direct action against the attacker. 

And here’s an even more important statistic: In all of the solo entries we identified where the scene was still hot, one-third of the police officers who made that solo entry were shot."

[ChrisJones 7,973]

The real heroes of this piece were the Junior Reserve Officer Training Corps. These two took positive steps to protect innocent kids. These three died in shooting protecting others and were awarded posthumous medals of heroism. Wang was also posthumously admitted to the U.S. Military Academy.

Unarmed military cadets stood up. Armed deputies stood down.

Edited February 25, 2018 by ChrisJones

[ChrisJones 7,973]

Also what you're seeing in the media could be a misrepresentation as an ongoing study is revealing that American millennials are no more liberal on gun control than their elders.

[Born Hunter 17,639]

6 minutes ago, ChrisJones said:

Also what you're seeing in the media could be a misrepresentation as an ongoing study is revealing that American millennials are no more liberal on gun control than their elders.

Whuuuuuuuut, you mean to say the media might not be representative of society? Surely not! 

[ChrisJones 7,973]

3 minutes ago, Born Hunter said:

Whuuuuuuuut, you mean to say the media might not be representative of society? Surely not! 

On a more serious note, we've all been around long enough to know that deeply rooted beliefs in THL's General Talk are highly unlikely to be changed by a serious of heated arguments and rebuttals. Entrenched ideas are that for a reason.

But gone are the days when you can post a montage of poorly researched YouTube clips and get away without it being called out.

That has to be progress, surely?

[ChrisJones 7,973]

The State of Florida is opening an investigation into the Broward County Sheriff's response to the school shooting.

 

[Meece 1,957]

7 hours ago, ChrisJones said:

I'm not 100% sure of their county's regs but it's highly probable looking at the way he's been suspended. He wasn't the only one there either which tips the scales against the LE for not acting and waiting for Coral Springs PD who went straight in.

Yes.

Federal Law.

18 U.S.C. § 922(d), it is unlawful for any person to sell or otherwise dispose of any firearm or ammunition to any person knowing or having reasonable cause to believe that such person “has been adjudicated as a mental defective or has been committed to any mental institution.” 

Florida's State Law.

Fla. Stat. Ann. §§ 790.065.

Upon receipt of a request for a criminal history record check, the Department of Law Enforcement shall, during the licensee’s call or by return call forthwith: Review any records available to determine if the potential buyer or transferee: Has been adjudicated mentally defective or has been committed to a mental institution by a court, and as a result is prohibited by state or federal law from purchasing a firearm.

Fla. Stat. Ann. § 790.06.

The Department of Agriculture and Consumer Services shall issue a license to carry concealed weapons or concealed firearms if the applicant: Has not been committed to a mental institution, under chapter 394 or similar laws of any other state.

In this case, there was certainly cause to not only refuse his purchases but have him sectioned. Failures at state and federal level all the way along here. It's not an excuse but when people call for new laws and repeals of constitutional law it's pertinent that existing laws haven't been enforced at all.

You're not missing anything, my friend. The document is a federal pamphlet that is issued to all potential first responders but you've been completely correct in this thread in regards to LE policy to engage. All LE policy varies slightly which is why it's so hard to nail down. The fact that four sheriff's deputies failed to intervene is unforgivable but given the task at hand, it's not clear whether they would have made much of a difference given their attitude and training. As Stiff's said it's not as easy as it looks with months of planning never mind as a reactive situation with literally thousands of variables.

Both you and Stiff are absolutely correct here. It's a paradox that no doubt will see galvanised attention in the coming weeks and months. Both private security and LE training will be massively affected.

Thank you, sir. I appreciate the sentiment but I may have a slightly different perspective with my background. Also, there are too many partisan opinions on the issue that simply assign blame but there appear to be no real-world solutions forthcoming despite these continuing tragedies. One side says only the police should have guns. The other points and says look what these police officers didn't do with the guns they would have taken from us. It's a constitutional pickle.

I'll attempt to answer a couple of your questions but forgive me I've not had my morning's caffeinated beverage and it's 0746 at the typing of this particular sentence!

Federally yes but states, counties, and down to cities/municipalities have their own rules and regs depending on the location. What I can carry here in the state of Utah won't be allowed in California. What can be carried in California won't be legal in New York. You have a constitutional right to bear arms for your protection. It's an inalienable right and is treated as the same as free speech.

True but it does seem that this particular LE's procedure was to engage judging by the suspension of the deputy. As both Born and Stiff have argued (both successfully IMHO) they were damned if they did and damned if they didn't but this was the day that they swore to deal with when they signed up for the job. The real pisser here is that local and federal LE had multiple incidents and reasons to intervene before this tragedy. They didn't.

Agreed. Security is a problem and solution mechanism. It's neither cheap nor convenient. Simply wishing parts of the equation away doesn't happen in real life. Tragedies happen and solutions come through trial and error. How does it go? Plan A never survives the first contact.

Incidentally, Louisiana is still suffering the backlash from that unconstitutional action as it goes through the courts. Also, there was a law passed that strictly forbids federal agents from confiscating firearms during a disaster as a result of the illegal search and seizures in Louisiana.

Phew... That's an intense start to a Sunday morning.

That is such a controlled and sensible answer without all of the usual yaboo answers that are given whenever 2nd is refered to. I  knew / heard that guns had been confiscated at the time but didn't realise that it was still lingering on.  I remember hearing that a family went back by boat to retrieve their family guns, some of which had been handed down by fathers and they Were taken at gunpoint.

Right, I saw this. 》》》》

I saw this on the BBC and thought you should see it:

Florida shooting: School threats spike 'significantly' - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-43190511

IF this is true , . Whens the next one going to be? And when is the San Andreas fault going to jump, and who's going to win the grand national or the Kentucky Derby ? It'll  give Donald more practice at delivering a sincere condolence speech to the victim's. Perhaps he will offer everyone a bullet proof jacket. Buy one you get one free!

[ChrisJones 7,973]

16 minutes ago, Meece said:

Right, I saw this. 》》》》

I saw this on the BBC and thought you should see it:

Florida shooting: School threats spike 'significantly' - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-43190511

IF this is true , . Whens the next one going to be? And when is the San Andreas fault going to jump, and who's going to win the grand national or the Kentucky Derby ? It'll  give Donald more practice at delivering a sincere condolence speech to the victim's. Perhaps he will offer everyone a bullet proof jacket. Buy one you get one free!

Threats do spike after these events. Even pulling this one from another state in the last couple of days using a straight internet search. It's also the same with terrorism events too. Ever see the news and the authorities are on heightened levels of awareness? That's the effect it has. It doesn't call out how many are hoaxes either so the data on such events isn't conclusive. If you crunch all of these events into annual crime reports they're still statistically rare in comparison (bear in mind that self-harm kills more kids than mass shootings but there are few CNN specials about those.)

There will be another mass shooting. There will be another terrorist event. We can either point the finger and engage in partisan politics or we can prepare for the worst whilst simultaneously hoping for the best and with a bipartisan approach to a realistic and workable solution. If you look at the post above regarding their schools JROTC they set a shining example of leadership in a crisis. Is it unreasonable to drill for these events? Basic first aid training at the bottom level? Further up the line designing buildings to factor in these issues the same way private businesses do? As a parent of kids the same age, we have our own 'What If' preparation same as we do for wildfire, and earthquakes (we live in areas where that can be an issue.)

The chat around the newsroom is about arming teachers. Everyone is losing their collective sh*t about it but it's been quietly happening for decades. More and more do it for the reasons this thread was penned in the first place. I'm currently training one in my state but you'd never know because of the way safety and security are drilled into those willing to take that extra step. For every story, you hear of accidents there are literally hundreds of thousands you don't because they're carrying in a way that is utterly safe and professional and as I've mentioned on other threads where this has cropped up if you've ever been in any American city at any point in your life you've been stood near someone who was privately and legally armed and you never knew it. That's the bit that's never reported. The tens of millions of armed citizens that are totally law abiding and only a threat to those that threaten others. That's the whole point of the 2A and there are a massive amount of Americans outside of social media shenanigans that take that responsibility extremely seriously.

[Blackbriar 8,568]

Arming teachers ?

Will that e librarian have a silencer ?

[mackem 23,828]

8 minutes ago, Blackbriar said:

Arming teachers ?

Will that e librarian have a silencer ?

Librarians get a welrod 

[ChrisJones 7,973]

The lawyer representing disgraced former Broward County deputy Scot Peterson has released a statement refuting that he was a coward and failed in his duties as an officer claiming that the video and the testimony of eyewitnesses will exonerate him.

As was highlighted earlier in the thread it probably will.

[ChrisJones 7,973]

Democrats have introduced a bill, to the house, that would ban semi-automatic weapons. We said earlier in the thread that Republicans are treading a fine line between nothing and too much. The Dems have now attempted the opposite which conservatives will see as the gun grab it is. In an election year too! Dems in marginal seats are now worrying that the move could threaten their seats.

In other news, several corporations have announced their business separation from the NRA. One of them is Delta airlines, based in Atlanta Georgia. In a bold move, the Georgia Senate has threatened to block Delta's $50m fuel tax exemption unless they reconsider!