Another school shooting in America

[ChrisJones 7,973]

26 minutes ago, ginger beard said:

Thats whats happening now so it does resonate now.

Fair enough I just thought the two-minute rant about immigrants was supposed to be reflective of the tone of the thread as a whole. Everyone focuses on skin colour. Anything else is arbitrary.

29 minutes ago, ginger beard said:

f***ing him in prison was just to humilate him not because its culture.

It's a warning to pick your allegiances carefully. Those that come to you with the illusion of protection will quickly turn on you when you don't toe the line and cast you to the wolves without a second thought. That's prevalent in all social groups. Immigrants haven't caused all of Britains problems. Government has.

[Kerny92 1,246]

8 hours ago, ChrisJones said:

Gentlemen. Why do kids join gangs?

Bad parenting? Low self-esteem? 

[WILF 44,334]

10 hours ago, ChrisJones said:

Gentlemen. Why do kids join gangs?

There’s not one reason and “gangs” come in all different guises.

Do you specifically mean Black Street gangs?

If we are talking criminal gangs in general, then for White lads it tends to be isolated groups of more mature blokes going about their criminal business......it’s a working arrangement rather than a cultural/lifestyle thing.

For Blacks it seems to be spread from youth to adult (in the same gang), you may have multiple gangs in the same area and it definitely seems to be part of the culture.

You will have white and black gangs in the same areas, they probably all went to the same schools and had the same chances and yet 6 white lads will be in a criminal “gang” of blokes their own age  and 50 black lads will be in 3 and nurturing the next generation of gang members too.

London prisons are jam packed packed with members of black street gangs.

What is their explanation for that?

As was said in that film (and I realise that AHX is a work of fiction) but why do blacks constantly conspire to fail where others make a success? 

Edited to add:

Im talking about the UK here.

Edited May 8, 2018 by WILF

[downsouth 6,842]

15 minutes ago, WILF said:

There’s not one reason and “gangs” come in all different guises.

Do you specifically mean Black Street gangs?

If we are talking criminal gangs in general, then for White lads it tends to be isolated groups of more mature blokes going about their criminal business......it’s a working arrangement rather than a cultural/lifestyle thing.

For Blacks it seems to be spread from youth to adult (in the same gang), you may have multiple gangs in the same area and it definitely seems to be part of the culture.

You will have white and black gangs in the same areas, they probably all went to the same schools and had the same chances and yet 6 white lads will be in a criminal “gang” of blokes their own age  and 50 black lads will be in 3 and nurturing the next generation of gang members too.

London prisons are jam packed packed with members of black street gangs.

What is their explanation for that?

As was said in that film (and I realise that AHX is a work of fiction) but why do blacks constantly conspire to fail where others make a success? 

Edited to add:

Im talking about the UK here.

Because apart from a few exceptions they are thick lazy c**ts.

[ChrisJones 7,973]

4 hours ago, WILF said:

There’s not one reason and “gangs” come in all different guises.

Do you specifically mean Black Street gangs?

All kinds of criminal enterprise. Not a specific gang. I understand that and the point is that we can trace with empirical evidence that gangs cause a disproportionate amount of crime in the US and the UK. The US stats are pretty clear on how they skew the crime figures and I don't see why the UK would be any different. The only difference I could see, IMHO, is that the UK's figure will see a bias towards a demographic so I'd imagine they'd either bury the results or not record them in the first place.

4 hours ago, WILF said:

As was said in that film (and I realise that AHX is a work of fiction) but why do blacks constantly conspire to fail where others make a success?

It's not due to the level of melanin in the skin. Correlation isn't causation. Gang activity is disproportionately young black men killing each other, that's easy to document in both countries but as you rightly pointed out there isn't just one reason people join gangs. If society can tackle those reasons maybe there would be a decent attempt at stopping it. Dramatically cutting the incentive for the welfare state would be a start.

[WILF 44,334]

I personally believe what I see mate, and what I see is it’s a cultural thing......that would be the reason and that is what we would need to tackle?

It would be like trying to stop a dog pissing up a lamp post.......some things are obviously just in the nature of the beast and you won’t stop that.......there is no way to tackle it.

You won’t stop Fido pissing by telling him he’s a good boy all the time and kicking the cat up the arse to prove how good the dog is.

[ChrisJones 7,973]

1 hour ago, WILF said:

I personally believe what I see mate, and what I see is it’s a cultural thing......that would be the reason and that is what we would need to tackle?

I know what you believe mate. We've spent many months arguing it to the point of impasse. I'll agree that part of the problem is young black men killing each other. I will not agree that it's the primary cause or even the only cause.

[WILF 44,334]

29 minutes ago, ChrisJones said:

I know what you believe mate. We've spent many months arguing it to the point of impasse. I'll agree that part of the problem is young black men killing each other. I will not agree that it's the primary cause or even the only cause.

What would be your initial thoughts on what the problem is mate ?

[ChrisJones 7,973]

10 minutes ago, WILF said:

What would be your initial thoughts on what the problem is mate ?

It's a tricky one without a doubt. Again what makes these kids join these gangs? Power and money? Belonging? What drives that? Drugs? Territory? Is there an outstanding factor or is it a combination of many? Why does this problem only seem to affect urban inner city areas to this degree?

Besides cultural differences with certain parts of your old city, what were the other causes for you leaving? Do you think that your decision to leave contained some of the same reasoning and do you think that your means to change your situation gave you an advantage?

[WILF 44,334]

Like lots of other people in the world, my old man died when I was 11.

My mother never knew how to do anything because she had never had too and so when the money ran out we had f**k all.

We lived in a rented house, didn’t own anything.

So, at 14 I didn’t join a street gang......I got some money together, bought some stock and went on the knocker door to door.

I grafted my bollocks off from 14 to 40 and had a few hard times along the way, the only means I had were ones I carved out for myself.....just like millions of other lads.

Im sorry mate, but I just don’t buy the “don’t have the same chances” excuse.

EVERYWHERE these people go they f**k up, nobody need a study to see that.....it’s right there.

I was the cash cow and these retards get the free pass for shit behaviour......nah mate, not on my watch. 

They just can’t help themselves.

[socks 32,253]

If you import the third world expect to get third world problems .....

[ChrisJones 7,973]

22 minutes ago, WILF said:

Im sorry mate, but I just don’t buy the “don’t have the same chances” excuse.

I'm not using the don't have the same chances excuse. The vast majority of violent crime is committed by gangs, globally. Even the fudge the numbers brigade are reluctantly pointing the finger at gangs as the cause of London's crime blip. Find out what drives gang culture and why people join gangs and you have a genuine crack at solving the large amounts of crime that are committed by a disproportionately small part of the population.

25 minutes ago, WILF said:

I was the cash cow and these retards get the free pass for shit behaviour......nah mate, not on my watch. 

Now we get into the meat and tatties of it. The welfare state. Who rewards people for not contributing?

37 minutes ago, WILF said:

EVERYWHERE these people go they f**k up, nobody need a study to see that.....it’s right there.

I work with a three-way split of white, black and latino colleagues. 120 in the facility. Everyone's on equal footing and there is no discernible difference based on skin colour, other than skin colour. Shortest term worker is 3 years, longest has been there 45+. Many of them have been to my gaff for BBQ's and I'd happily continue to do so. I simply do not buy into the skin colour as the sole motivating factor behind the crime rate. Back in Manchester, the only people that slighted me in any way were white.

There is more at play and until it's tackled the problem will simply fester.

25 minutes ago, socks said:

If you import the third world expect to get third world problems .....

And who's in charge of the importing? The housing? The paperwork? The get yourself back on your feet cheque? Etc, etc, ad nauseum. Not to mention who's actually displaced them in the first place? It begins with 'G'

The sad reality is that until you remove the incentive for people to migrate halfway around the world to take what you're offering no amount of Brexit, walls, border-control, quotas, snipers, is going to change a damn thing.

[WILF 44,334]

Mate, i know black lads myself and get on well with them.

I know pakis and Indians and chinamen and all sorts........

But you still can’t get away from the fact that when they move to areas in numbers those areas get worse......nowhere ever got better when half of Nigeria and the Sudan turned up.

Thats just an inescapable fact.

We are giving these communities excuses when we should be giving them expectations and consequences.

How many years is the poor f***ing black man going to be the poor f***ing black man.?

You say you have good pals and I don’t doubt it for one second but you wouldnt move your family to Compton would you because you would get murdered, same as you would in Cape Town, Mogadishu or Mombasa.......you probably wouldn’t get murdered in Hawkshead, Hong Kong, Hawaii or Alaska.......or indeed where you live now because it probably isn’t swamped with darkies and your packing ! Lol 

Life means nothing to these people and from what I see, be they second or third gen, the apple don’t fall far from the tree.

[ChrisJones 7,973]

19 hours ago, WILF said:

But you still can’t get away from the fact that when they move to areas in numbers those areas get worse......nowhere ever got better when half of Nigeria and the Sudan turned up.

I can accept this to a point but we're straddling the line of homegrown vs imported. If you move from an area that doesn't have running water, even for £3 a month, moving to somewhere that does is a huge step up. Immigrants generally move to improve their standards, wouldn't you agree? Their step up, in some cases, is somewhere we wouldn't house our old copies of CMW. But that is 3rd world to the 1st world. That issue can be solved almost overnight by gutting the welfare state and removing the incentives that place these people on the northern coast of France bypassing everywhere in between.

Homegrown is multifaceted issues and their base lies predominantly in social programs that encourage people to take from the system, rather go out and work to put into the system. If you look at the number of single parents and/or broken families that are reliant on the system we start to chip away at the narrative. Single mothers get housing ahead of everyone else. Refugees get houses ahead of everyone after, and so on. The incentive to not work and go on the dole is much higher for a poorly educated person as the state will sort it all out. People brought up in these environments repeat the pattern and the cycle continues.

My auntie (dad's step-sister) has never worked, she's taken a cheque from the state her entire adult life. She retired two years ago and now receives a pension. From the years of smoking, she suffered a stroke early into her retirement. Her second husband quit his job to get a carer's allowance to look after her. Part of that package involves a brand new car every two three years. She has three kids. Two don't work and live in social housing with their own kids repeating the pattern. One of them was in a gang and in social housing at the pleasure of her majesty. Their kids are taken care of by the state and... f*ck it. You see exactly where this is headed for the next 12 generations.

My dad is still married to my mam. Worked his entire life until he retired. He said to me at 15, "You better get a job soon, son. No one likes a lounger" So I did. I passed the message on to my son. He's 17 works part time and worked more in the last 18 months than my auntie and her entire clan has in their lives. He has money and likes it when he does and understands that selling your labour for a previously agreed term, and earning it is much better than living on an allowance.

19 hours ago, WILF said:

We are giving these communities excuses when we should be giving them expectations and consequences.

Don't mistake me. I'm absolutely not saying that they should be given a free pass. They absolutely should have expectations and consequences. We're trying to figure out why a disproportionate number of people commit the majority of the crimes in largely populated cities and this isn't solely down to skin colour.

• Expectation: Work
• Consequence: Gutting the welfare state.

19 hours ago, WILF said:

How many years is the poor f***ing black man going to be the poor f***ing black man.?

Honestly? As long as the powers that be enable multiple generations of the terminally lazy to suckle at the state's tit. Don't confuse my equal before the law with egalitarianism. The issues we're attempting to discuss are symptoms of a much bigger societal issue. The point is to try and identify them and open up the bigger problem to scrutiny.

19 hours ago, WILF said:

You say you have good pals and I don’t doubt it for one second but you wouldnt move your family to Compton would you because you would get murdered, same as you would in Cape Town, Mogadishu or Mombasa.......you probably wouldn’t get murdered in Hawkshead, Hong Kong, Hawaii or Alaska.......or indeed where you live now because it probably isn’t swamped with darkies and your packing ! Lol 

You're right I wouldn't move my family to Compton! Or London or Manchester for that matter! But to someone coming from Cape Town, Aleppo, or Mogadishu, Compton would be a massive step up in the standard of living stakes. If you take any of these dozen or so yank cities that skew the crime statistics for the entire nation you'll find a dark underbelly of government programs designed by the incompetent and completely unfit for purpose. Take this one currently being proposed in Sacramento, California. Government money to pay gang members to stay out of trouble?! There's that G word again.

 

Edited May 9, 2018 by ChrisJones
Typo

[WILF 44,334]

The trouble with government programmers designed for black areas is that everyone is just afraid to speak honestly........just say it like it is, “why the f**k is it always you lot?....pack it in!” 

I totally get you, I really do and no the import from Somalia has NO place in England or the US no matter how well meaning........it’s like those buffoons who think they can live with bears and not get eaten.

It’s a given that government will manage to make a giant f**k of almost every job so we have to discount them (imho)

The lack of honesty is the worst with all of it, this almost phycopathic need to never state the obvious and offend anyone.

So what’s the way forward?.......imho, I’m a simple bloke and I think simple is best......they should just f**k off because it’s too complicated and political to do anything half sensible.

If you can’t be fair then you will just have to be unfair.