The Legend Ali

[bird 10,014]

A fighter doesnt have to be at his physical peak no but when he,s neither at his physical or mental peak and thinking about retirement how can he possibly be in the prime of his career......Marciano wasnt the first and wont be the last fighter to catch big name opponents at the end of their careers and its the big name opponents we judge fighters on.......most people accept Ali,s most impressive individual performance was against Cleveland Williams but people judge his career on his fights with the big names like Frazier/Foreman/Norton etc

you got a link to that fight gnash(cleveland williams v Ali .) ?? would like to see it !

[AKA-BRINDLE 879]

A fighter doesnt have to be at his physical peak no but when he,s neither at his physical or mental peak and thinking about retirement how can he possibly be in the prime of his career......Marciano wasnt the first and wont be the last fighter to catch big name opponents at the end of their careers and its the big name opponents we judge fighters on.......most people accept Ali,s most impressive individual performance was against Cleveland Williams but people judge his career on his fights with the big names like Frazier/Foreman/Norton etc

You can say the same about Marciano-v-Wallcot about Ali-v-Frazier...Frazier was in his prime when he beat Ali...Ali beat him at the end of his career...Frazier only really fought 4 times after the first loss to Ali...retired 2yrs later...if an in his prime Frazier who was a similar size and fought in a similar style to Marciano could beat Ali...whats to say an in his prime Marciano wouldnt...but obviously its not possible for anyone one to say for sure.

 

Ali never followed the Dempsey code of being heavyweight champion of the world,as so faithfully adhered to by Louis and Marciano...instead he invented his own standard of behaviour for a modern superstar athlete with international appeal...Ali's fame was due less to his connection to the tradition of heavyweight championship boxing and more to his own magnetic personality...the fact that he held the heavyweight title at various intervals helped put him in the spotlight but was ultimately incidental to his fame...the reason he fought in big glamorous fights (no fight crackled like the first Ali Frazier fight) was not institutional but personal...He...not the institution of heavyweight championship boxing supplied the electricity...ultimately Ali was a political and social force that transcends his sport(and all sports for that matter)...his individual brilliance and charisma did not restore the kingdom of heavyweight championship boxing but merely obscured the fact that it had crumbled years before...the fact became evident once he faded from the scene in the early 80s.

Marciano,then was the last man to derive his fame from the institution of heavyweight championship boxing...as it turned out althogh no one knew it at the time...he was the last of a dying breed.

 

(a quote above from Russel Sullivans excellent book Rocky Marciano...the rock of his times...it pissing down with rain here lol)

Edited July 9, 2016 by AKA-BRINDLE

[gnasher16 31,360]

 

A fighter doesnt have to be at his physical peak no but when he,s neither at his physical or mental peak and thinking about retirement how can he possibly be in the prime of his career......Marciano wasnt the first and wont be the last fighter to catch big name opponents at the end of their careers and its the big name opponents we judge fighters on.......most people accept Ali,s most impressive individual performance was against Cleveland Williams but people judge his career on his fights with the big names like Frazier/Foreman/Norton etc

I doubt both Walcott and Louis would have retired had they defeated Marciano. Getting knocked out badly takes a lot of confidence out of a fighter.

 

Ali was on fire against Williams but remember Williams was shot also, literally....

 

Ali for me is the greatest of all time.

 

Between them Walcott and Louis were probably knocked out 9 or 10 times....yes getting ko,d effects a young fighters confidence......getting ko,d as an old fighter is often the final nail in the coffin.

 

Marcianos 2 biggest name opponents he beat in their very last fights thats not what makes Ali the greatest heavyweight of all time but its certainly what makes Marciano not....only in my opinion like.

[darbo 4,779]

 

A fighter doesnt have to be at his physical peak no but when he,s neither at his physical or mental peak and thinking about retirement how can he possibly be in the prime of his career......Marciano wasnt the first and wont be the last fighter to catch big name opponents at the end of their careers and its the big name opponents we judge fighters on.......most people accept Ali,s most impressive individual performance was against Cleveland Williams but people judge his career on his fights with the big names like Frazier/Foreman/Norton etc

you got a link to that fight gnash(cleveland williams v Ali .) ?? would like to see it !

 

https://youtu.be/0rI6pZDJOVc

[gnasher16 31,360]

 

A fighter doesnt have to be at his physical peak no but when he,s neither at his physical or mental peak and thinking about retirement how can he possibly be in the prime of his career......Marciano wasnt the first and wont be the last fighter to catch big name opponents at the end of their careers and its the big name opponents we judge fighters on.......most people accept Ali,s most impressive individual performance was against Cleveland Williams but people judge his career on his fights with the big names like Frazier/Foreman/Norton etc

You can say the same about Marciano-v-Wallcot about Ali-v-Frazier...Frazier was in his prime when he beat Ali...Ali beat him at the end of his career...Frazier only really fought 4 times after the first loss to Ali...retired 2yrs later...if an in his prime Frazier who was a similar size and fought in a similar style to Marciano could beat Ali...whats to say an in his prime Marciano wouldnt...but obviously its not possible for anyone one to say for sure.

 

 

Its always difficult when comparing eras but Marciano beat Walcott/Louis when they were old men with a lot of miles on the clock......i dont know how old Frazier was when he first lost to Ali without looking at a guess id say 29/30 and he had probably boxed half the amount of rounds of those 2 so had far less miles on the clock.

 

Personally ive always thought a Marciano v Frazier fight would of been a great fight.....messy.....but a good fight.... we also tend to forget Frazier would of had a good 20 - 25 lb on Marciano i just think a fight between 2 relentless pressure fighters normally comes down to pure desire and Frazier for me was one of the gamest fighters who ever lived.

Edited July 9, 2016 by gnasher16

[Astanley 11,632]

Since the 40s and 50s the size difference every twenty years or so in heavyweights is getting so drastic that these ,who's the best heavyweight ever debates ,would probably be better as who's the best pound for pound heavyweight ever ,it pains me to say it but some of the freaks of today would probably beat some really great champions of yesteryear just on size and awkwardness alone

Its not enough any more to have all the prerequisites of a good boxer to rule the division ,youv got to have a fekin stepladder .

[Lenmcharristar 10,271]

 

 

A fighter doesnt have to be at his physical peak no but when he,s neither at his physical or mental peak and thinking about retirement how can he possibly be in the prime of his career......Marciano wasnt the first and wont be the last fighter to catch big name opponents at the end of their careers and its the big name opponents we judge fighters on.......most people accept Ali,s most impressive individual performance was against Cleveland Williams but people judge his career on his fights with the big names like Frazier/Foreman/Norton etc

 

You can say the same about Marciano-v-Wallcot about Ali-v-Frazier...Frazier was in his prime when he beat Ali...Ali beat him at the end of his career...Frazier only really fought 4 times after the first loss to Ali...retired 2yrs later...if an in his prime Frazier who was a similar size and fought in a similar style to Marciano could beat Ali...whats to say an in his prime Marciano wouldnt...but obviously its not possible for anyone one to say for sure.

Its always difficult when comparing eras but Marciano beat Walcott/Louis when they were old men with a lot of miles on the clock......i dont know how old Frazier was when he first lost to Ali without looking at a guess id say 29/30 and he had probably boxed half the amount of rounds of those 2 so had far less miles on the clock.

 

Personally ive always thought a Marciano v Frazier fight would of been a great fight.....messy.....but a good fight.... we also tend to forget Frazier would of had a good 20 - 25 lb on Marciano i just think a fight between 2 relentless pressure fighters normally comes down to pure desire and Frazier for me was one of the gamest fighters who ever lived.

i love to have seen them 2 fight but I think Marciano would have beaten Frazier by knocking him out cold. Any big puncher kod him, and the rock does too. But 2 of the gamest ever those too

[Lenmcharristar 10,271]

Dempsey v Marciano, 2 killers going at it brutality at its best

[gnasher16 31,360]

 

I doubt both Walcott and Louis would have retired had they defeated Marciano. Getting knocked out badly takes a lot of confidence out of a fighter.

 

Ali was on fire against Williams but remember Williams was shot also, literally....

 

Ali for me is the greatest of all time.

 

By the way when i made reference to the Williams fight i wasnt making any reference whatsoever to Williams as an opponent....just the timing of Ali,s career as it was about the closest he ever got to a peak in my opinion......a year or so before the draft years.

[sussex 5,803]

Watching the Ali , williams fight the gloves seemed small by today's standard , are they the same or have they changed size ? ..

[bird 10,014]

 

 

A fighter doesnt have to be at his physical peak no but when he,s neither at his physical or mental peak and thinking about retirement how can he possibly be in the prime of his career......Marciano wasnt the first and wont be the last fighter to catch big name opponents at the end of their careers and its the big name opponents we judge fighters on.......most people accept Ali,s most impressive individual performance was against Cleveland Williams but people judge his career on his fights with the big names like Frazier/Foreman/Norton etc

you got a link to that fight gnash(cleveland williams v Ali .) ?? would like to see it !

 

https://youtu.be/0rI6pZDJOVc

 

thanks bloody hell the speed,balance ,power, for a 16st man was incredible really was, you think you looking at light heavy ,Ali was pure class then ,like you say gnash at his best . no heavy weight would have lived with him then .

[MickC 1,825]

For anybody interested in what Jack Johnson had to go through/put up with during his career there is a two part documentary on Discovery on the PBS channel tonight (ch 534) Its called Jack Johnson : unforgivable blackness,the first part is back on again at 12:30 am. You will never watch a more disgraceful documentary about any boxer in History with what happened to him and others around him. It culminated in the President of America banning the film of his victory over the White unbeaten former champion Jeffries.

[AKA-BRINDLE 879]

For anybody interested in what Jack Johnson had to go through/put up with during his career there is a two part documentary on Discovery on the PBS channel tonight (ch 534) Its called Jack Johnson : unforgivable blackness,the first part is back on again at 12:30 am. You will never watch a more disgraceful documentary about any boxer in History with what happened to him and others around him. It culminated in the President of America banning the film of his victory over the White unbeaten former champion Jeffries.

Cheers for the heads up Mick...love this kinda stuff...its on again tonight so have set to record it...in regards to the way Johnson was treated...to quote the great Jem Mace...it was "other times other manners"...Johnson would have to be another candidate for the title of 'Greatest'...Bob Fitzsimmonds too...names now being lost to time...along with the previously mentioned Mr Mace the 'Father of Modern boxing'..who played a major part in forging the sport as it is today.

[JDHUNTING 1,817]

I wonder how Marciano would fair against the greats at lower weights hagler, riy Jones etc

[gnasher16 31,360]

I wonder how Marciano would fair against the greats at lower weights hagler, riy Jones etc

Good shout mate ive often wondered how he might of faired against someone like Holyfield or Michael Spinks fighters bordering the cruiser/heavy divisions......i dont really have favorites as such but Spinks was a fighter i really liked his unpredictable movement was so good to watch i had money on him to do Tyson ....as you say theres some fascinating match ups for Marciano when you look outside the heavyweight division.