Greyhound Bitch

[DEERMAN 1,016]

Wouldnt own a pure saluki either, never mind saluki this, that,other, its only when you cross them you get owt worth keeping.

Have this allways been the case since they came to our shores or have they like other breeds been ruined in later years ?

[NEWSBOY 306]

just like the grehound, they are better when crossed, no plodder is gonna be consistant on normal land, not like a good lurcher.

[sandymere 8,261]

 

 

Some lurcher owners are very ruthless sandy, like the best terriermen/coursing lads, the difference is they are proven in the field, not track.

I don’t know of any lucher owners who would be able to pick the best out of a hundred let alone one in a thousand.

 

As to track proven, well one must consider it in context, a greyhound that is bred from the best of the best that completes a racing career during which it must be able to withstand pressure through it joints that would snap the wrists of a lesser athlete. To my mind this athlete is worth a little closer scrutiny.

 

When cornering the bones/wrist joints sustain pressure of 500psi or 20,000 newtons per square cm, in simple terms the wrist and lower limb structures withstand up to 150kg of downward pressure when galloping around a corner.

A greyhound's heart weight ranges from 1.18 to 1.73% of body weight, or 270 grams to 519 grams for a 30kg greyhound, which is higher than an elite racehorse at 1.0-1.3% of its body weight. Other breeds of dogs have a heart weight equal to 0.77%, about half the size of a greyhound.

A fit greyhound has the highest blood volume of any athlete, relative to its body size, with blood contributing 11.4%, compared to 10.5% for a racehorse, 9.5% for a human sprint athlete and 7.2% for a normal pet dog.

Then there’s the muscles that convert this ability to power and speed, these constitute a greater percentage of the total body mass in greyhounds 57% in comparison to humans 40% and other dogs 44%. Of these in comparison to other breeds greyhounds have a proportionally greater pelvic limb muscle mass. Which allows a higher stride frequency and so faster pace.

Without these adaptions a greyhound running around a track at top speed would break its wrists whilst having a heart attack lol.

So when you add greyhound blood to a lurcher strain you don’t just add speed but you also get the physical attributes that back up that speed. The increased heart size and blood volume doesn’t come from beddies or collies and without it the lurcher cannot perform, a lurcher with a beddies heart will never be any good, it would be like putting a Morris minor engine in a Subaru and wondering why you can’t win a rally!

I think it can be said that if a track dog hasn’t got the physicality, ie heart, blood etc it will not be able to compete at the track. Second if it is to chase, what it knows is an artificial lure, for a number of years pushing itself right to the limit time after time it must also have the mental attitude/chase instinct honed to a great degree.

So greyhounds are proven by the track, the problem is the track isn’t a field and greyhound are bred for the track. Lurcher breeders need to tone down these attributes to get a slower animal, a less perfect running machine. But if one can get the Greyhounds heart size, blood volume etc into the body of a lurcher these diluted greyhounds have the physical potential to be really robust. A dog able to take the pressure that greyhounds joints can withstand, the strain on the heart that a greyhound can stand whilst having increased stamina and agility that comes with the reduction in speed are pretty much the basis of every lurcher. When you breed a collie or beddie greyhound ,from the second generation a fair proportion of pups will have the majority heart and blood volume etc of the non-greyhound ancestor and you can’t see this it can only be found through real work, I’ve already said how many really work their lurcher before breeding?? I’d say I have been out with a lot of lurcher men over the years, more than I’d care to remember and I can count on one hand those who realy worked their dogs. I’ve never bred a lurcher, mainly because I’ve never had one that was either good enough or worked hard enough to prove its worth.

 

a salukis heart is a third bigger than any other dog .its lungs are also a third bigger .its skeleton and joints etc are more akin to a cheetahs . a greyhound is with out doubt the most injury prone dog in existence ,bad feet. bad joints .very weak willed .as for stamina .it doesnt have any .

 

A saluki like a grey, and whippets for that matter, have a bigger heart than other breeds and when crossed with a grey with careful breeding for a few generations you can get a special lurcher, a case of the sum being greater than the parts.

 

Neither greyhound nor salukis are perfect lurchers but both can bring attributes to the table in lurcher breeding.

[jake824 517]

Some lurcher owners are very ruthless sandy, like the best terriermen/coursing lads, the difference is they are proven in the field, not track.

spot on mate. And if everyone was totally honest about their dogs before they bred them I suspect there would be very few litters about.

[sandymere 8,261]

So you would rather breed from a greyhound Sandy over a regular 5/5 coursing bred dog? You can talk all scientifically mate but you've no common sense lol

 

Edited to add ..either no sense or little experience of regular hard grafting lurchers ..not looking for an argument buddy I just find your ethics on this rather daft lol

It would depend what I was looking to achieve but if I wanted to breed a line of faster type lurchers I would use both, I would use the coursing bred dog to maintain agility and strike and the grey to maintain the underlying physicality, leg turnover etc. The coursing bred dog wouldn't have the genetic stability to ensure these traits are passed down to enough offspring over a number of generations whereas the judicious addition of the greyhound influence would help to stabilise that side of things. Cutting the risk of non-doers in a litter is important to owners that only have one or two dogs, spending a year raising a dog to find it hasn’t got it is a big investment. You would get litter wastage with the first cross to grey with some being to close to the grey but that’s where the lurcher stud comes in.

 

As I have already said if there were enough owners of good lurchers who really only bred from the very very best then in a few generations the greyhound would become redundant but there isn’t. Plenty say they do but most don’t and all too often dogs/litters are sold on name not performance then used as studs/broods based on who their great grandparent was. As too little experience, you may be right but as I said before I’ve seen a few that where bred from named fen dogs etc that needed a kick up the ass to catch a cold. If I were to go back 30 years to stand at the side of a field watching a herd of fallow grazing with the choice of either one of my own track bitches or one of the lurchers from the last show at I went to at my side I know which I would chose. That isn’t scientific it’s just common sense.

[neems 2,406]

 

So you would rather breed from a greyhound Sandy over a regular 5/5 coursing bred dog? You can talk all scientifically mate but you've no common sense lol

 

Edited to add ..either no sense or little experience of regular hard grafting lurchers ..not looking for an argument buddy I just find your ethics on this rather daft lol

It would depend what I was looking to achieve but if I wanted to breed a line of faster type lurchers I would use both, I would use the coursing bred dog to maintain agility and strike and the grey to maintain the underlying physicality, leg turnover etc. The coursing bred dog wouldn't have the genetic stability to ensure these traits are passed down to enough offspring over a number of generations whereas the judicious addition of the greyhound influence would help to stabilise that side of things. Cutting the risk of non-doers in a litter is important to owners that only have one or two dogs, spending a year raising a dog to find it hasn’t got it is a big investment. You would get litter wastage with the first cross to grey with some being to close to the grey but that’s where the lurcher stud comes in.

 

As I have already said if there were enough owners of good lurchers who really only bred from the very very best then in a few generations the greyhound would become redundant but there isn’t. Plenty say they do but most don’t and all too often dogs/litters are sold on name not performance then used as studs/broods based on who their great grandparent was. As too little experience, you may be right but as I said before I’ve seen a few that where bred from named fen dogs etc that needed a kick up the ass to catch a cold. If I were to go back 30 years to stand at the side of a field watching a herd of fallow grazing with the choice of either one of my own track bitches or one of the lurchers from the last show at I went to at my side I know which I would chose. That isn’t scientific it’s just common sense.

 

 

So if you're going to buy from an untested dog make sure it's got a lot of greyhound in it?

 

if it's lurcher to lurcher both sides and both sides are well tested right back to the beginning that'd be good enough for me.

[NEWSBOY 306]

 

So you would rather breed from a greyhound Sandy over a regular 5/5 coursing bred dog? You can talk all scientifically mate but you've no common sense lol

Edited to add ..either no sense or little experience of regular hard grafting lurchers ..not looking for an argument buddy I just find your ethics on this rather daft lol

 

It would depend what I was looking to achieve but if I wanted to breed a line of faster type lurchers I would use both, I would use the coursing bred dog to maintain agility and strike and the grey to maintain the underlying physicality, leg turnover etc. The coursing bred dog wouldn't have the genetic stability to ensure these traits are passed down to enough offspring over a number of generations whereas the judicious addition of the greyhound influence would help to stabilise that side of things. Cutting the risk of non-doers in a litter is important to owners that only have one or two dogs, spending a year raising a dog to find it hasn’t got it is a big investment. You would get litter wastage with the first cross to grey with some being to close to the grey but that’s where the lurcher stud comes in.

 

As I have already said if there were enough owners of good lurchers who really only bred from the very very best then in a few generations the greyhound would become redundant but there isn’t. Plenty say they do but most don’t and all too often dogs/litters are sold on name not performance then used as studs/broods based on who their great grandparent was. As too little experience, you may be right but as I said before I’ve seen a few that where bred from named fen dogs etc that needed a kick up the ass to catch a cold. If I were to go back 30 years to stand at the side of a field watching a herd of fallow grazing with the choice of either one of my own track bitches or one of the lurchers from the last show at I went to at my side I know which I would chose. That isn’t scientific it’s just common sense.

if i was stood watchin a herd of fallow with a freebie flapper an a show bred lurcher, i would be thinking of what to have with my salad for tea.

[bunnys 1,228]

Newsboy has a point and given the choice would prefer well bred Lurcher lurcher ova generations above most ought else speed ain't all it's cracked up to be ,speed gotten from coursing stock have several breeds in them and bred generation after generation difference his they bred to catch lots of qualitys have to be considered other than blind speed the old adage off adding grey blood every five gens don't hold water ta me been there ,Ya usually take one step forward and two back ,greyhounds are not only the giver of lurchers but can also be ruinous affect on good established lines fact . using fast type lurchers will give thee beta results and beta recover time in there progeny a big plus in modern day lampingwhere big bags are wanted .atb bunnys.

[sandymere 8,261]

 

 

So you would rather breed from a greyhound Sandy over a regular 5/5 coursing bred dog? You can talk all scientifically mate but you've no common sense lol

Edited to add ..either no sense or little experience of regular hard grafting lurchers ..not looking for an argument buddy I just find your ethics on this rather daft lol

It would depend what I was looking to achieve but if I wanted to breed a line of faster type lurchers I would use both, I would use the coursing bred dog to maintain agility and strike and the grey to maintain the underlying physicality, leg turnover etc. The coursing bred dog wouldn't have the genetic stability to ensure these traits are passed down to enough offspring over a number of generations whereas the judicious addition of the greyhound influence would help to stabilise that side of things. Cutting the risk of non-doers in a litter is important to owners that only have one or two dogs, spending a year raising a dog to find it hasn’t got it is a big investment. You would get litter wastage with the first cross to grey with some being to close to the grey but that’s where the lurcher stud comes in.

 

As I have already said if there were enough owners of good lurchers who really only bred from the very very best then in a few generations the greyhound would become redundant but there isn’t. Plenty say they do but most don’t and all too often dogs/litters are sold on name not performance then used as studs/broods based on who their great grandparent was. As too little experience, you may be right but as I said before I’ve seen a few that where bred from named fen dogs etc that needed a kick up the ass to catch a cold. If I were to go back 30 years to stand at the side of a field watching a herd of fallow grazing with the choice of either one of my own track bitches or one of the lurchers from the last show at I went to at my side I know which I would chose. That isn’t scientific it’s just common sense.

if i was stood watchin a herd of fallow with a freebie flapper an a show bred lurcher, i would be thinking of what to have with my salad for tea.

 

yes but if you’d had one of my greys you'd have a chance of having some of my memories, some good times lol.

[chris87 297]

Great thread lads, very interesting points on both sides. Cheers

[fox digger 1,086]

The irish have a bit of a better chance of getting decent greyhounds than most others in my opinion, due to the fact that alot of our coursing greyhounds are brought up and kept fit out in the fields. I have no major qualms about breeding from a good coursing grey bitch or dog. Ive a wheaten pup here at the minute off a decent pure bred bitch that ran in clonmel and bred decent working lurchers previously. Its all down to what a lad is looking to get out of his dogs i suppose. Likewise ive a lurcher x lurcher with saluki in her for a job aswell. Horses for courses!!

[fox digger 1,086]

But i dont agree that generation bred lurchers will gradually be getting slower, i think it was said earlier in this thread that its a basic first year of keeping lurchers fact.... Im in disagreement!!! Lurcher x lurcher as many times as you want and the difference in speeds will vary in every litter but imo not consistantly drop.

[matt1979 766]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Some lurcher owners are very ruthless sandy, like the best terriermen/coursing lads, the difference is they are proven in the field, not track.

I dont know of any lucher owners who would be able to pick the best out of a hundred let alone one in a thousand.

 

As to track proven, well one must consider it in context, a greyhound that is bred from the best of the best that completes a racing career during which it must be able to withstand pressure through it joints that would snap the wrists of a lesser athlete. To my mind this athlete is worth a little closer scrutiny.

 

When cornering the bones/wrist joints sustain pressure of 500psi or 20,000 newtons per square cm, in simple terms the wrist and lower limb structures withstand up to 150kg of downward pressure when galloping around a corner.

A greyhound's heart weight ranges from 1.18 to 1.73% of body weight, or 270 grams to 519 grams for a 30kg greyhound, which is higher than an elite racehorse at 1.0-1.3% of its body weight. Other breeds of dogs have a heart weight equal to 0.77%, about half the size of a greyhound.

A fit greyhound has the highest blood volume of any athlete, relative to its body size, with blood contributing 11.4%, compared to 10.5% for a racehorse, 9.5% for a human sprint athlete and 7.2% for a normal pet dog.

Then theres the muscles that convert this ability to power and speed, these constitute a greater percentage of the total body mass in greyhounds 57% in comparison to humans 40% and other dogs 44%. Of these in comparison to other breeds greyhounds have a proportionally greater pelvic limb muscle mass. Which allows a higher stride frequency and so faster pace.

Without these adaptions a greyhound running around a track at top speed would break its wrists whilst having a heart attack lol.

So when you add greyhound blood to a lurcher strain you dont just add speed but you also get the physical attributes that back up that speed. The increased heart size and blood volume doesnt come from beddies or collies and without it the lurcher cannot perform, a lurcher with a beddies heart will never be any good, it would be like putting a Morris minor engine in a Subaru and wondering why you cant win a rally!

I think it can be said that if a track dog hasnt got the physicality, ie heart, blood etc it will not be able to compete at the track. Second if it is to chase, what it knows is an artificial lure, for a number of years pushing itself right to the limit time after time it must also have the mental attitude/chase instinct honed to a great degree.

So greyhounds are proven by the track, the problem is the track isnt a field and greyhound are bred for the track. Lurcher breeders need to tone down these attributes to get a slower animal, a less perfect running machine. But if one can get the Greyhounds heart size, blood volume etc into the body of a lurcher these diluted greyhounds have the physical potential to be really robust. A dog able to take the pressure that greyhounds joints can withstand, the strain on the heart that a greyhound can stand whilst having increased stamina and agility that comes with the reduction in speed are pretty much the basis of every lurcher. When you breed a collie or beddie greyhound ,from the second generation a fair proportion of pups will have the majority heart and blood volume etc of the non-greyhound ancestor and you cant see this it can only be found through real work, Ive already said how many really work their lurcher before breeding?? Id say I have been out with a lot of lurcher men over the years, more than Id care to remember and I can count on one hand those who realy worked their dogs. Ive never bred a lurcher, mainly because Ive never had one that was either good enough or worked hard enough to prove its worth.

a salukis heart is a third bigger than any other dog .its lungs are also a third bigger .its skeleton and joints etc are more akin to a cheetahs . a greyhound is with out doubt the most injury prone dog in existence ,bad feet. bad joints .very weak willed .as for stamina .it doesnt have any .

Genuine question but how can the saluki heart and lungs be so much bigger than other running dogs when their chest cavity is often similar size to a grey for example. I am not questioning their stamina just thought you might have the answer. On a separate note, comparing the saluki to a cheetah isn't really a link as the cheetah is mechanically one of the poorest animals on the planet for endurance and designed purely for speed just a thought. Biomechanically their must be significant difference in the skeleton or at least gait pattern of the two otherwise the saluki irrelevant of the size of heart and lungs etc would have no wind either and pace to burn neither of which seem the case in my experience (that's not to say they are slow just not pure speed merchants) atb

this is a pure bred saluki .theres not a greyhound in the country can do the same ,theres some very useful links on line as well about salukis genetic make up compared to a greyhounds

Cheers will have a look atb

[Falconer77 52]

THE SALUKI IS LIKE A ISULIM SEEKER HE NEEDS A BIT OF BRITISH GREYHOUND BLOOD TO STAY IN COUNTRY

[roybo 2,873]

But i dont agree that generation bred lurchers will gradually be getting slower, i think it was said earlier in this thread that its a basic first year of keeping lurchers fact.... Im in disagreement!!! Lurcher x lurcher as many times as you want and the difference in speeds will vary in every litter but imo not consistantly drop.

exactly my thinking i don't dislike or think its wrong to add greyhound but to say you NEED to add greyhound every now and then is wrong imho,