Strains

[jeemes 3,547]

 

I've only just read through this lot and believe me there are a lot of half truths and urban myths about breeding stock of any sort, it is called linebreeding when it works and inbreeding when it doesn't, I've been breeding decent working terriers for 40yrs now and it really is a case of "suck it and see", when thinking of breeding off a certain dog or bitch we have to look firstly at its working ability, is it that good ?? supposing the answer is yes then you need something at least as good as the one you have, if that other dog or bitch is related then you have to consider 2 different things, "genotype" and "Phenotype", Phenotype is easy because that's its physical charactoristics, ie ; size, shape, etc, then there are the Geno or inherited genetic plus's and faults, if you breed too close you not only double these good genetic points but any bad points as well , the Plummer terrier is suffering many of these now with "perthes syndrome" and internal organ failure, many of our K C registered breeds suffer from this due to small gene pools and breeding off dogs known to carry both types of faults,when starting off a line or strain you need to start with the best dogs that carry no known genetic or physical faults but are also good working stock, there are some very good books that explain genetics but they are boring as f*ck and need to be read and reread until it goes in if you are serious about breeding decent healthy working progeny, we can all breed the odd one in a litter that's excellent but a "one off", it looks and works well but will not necessarily reproduce the stock if the genes aren't there, even after weighing up everything described there are no guarantee's of success, WM

good post genetic reading is as you say boring but well worth sticking with ------

 

sounds like a book dont it. Where a lot of knowledge is learned.

[wirral countryman 2,110]

Stig, a good read that's a bit more for the average man is "Practical Dog Breeding And Genetics" by Eleanor Frankling and revised by Trevor TurnerB.vet.med.MRCVS.

if you can get through it then many things become clearer, WM

[the_stig 6,614]

Stig, a good read that's a bit more for the average man is "Practical Dog Breeding And Genetics" by Eleanor Frankling and revised by Trevor TurnerB.vet.med.MRCVS.

if you can get through it then many things become clearer, WM

think i`ve got it some where i know a couple thats bred yorkies for years swears by inbreeding she said to me once when it good its good when its bad its fooking awfull

Edited February 7, 2014 by the_stig

[jeemes 3,547]

the dog breeders manual, E.fitch Daglish. inbreeding explained and encouraged..good read.

[Aeron 43]

I said i was done here but this fool is winding me up .Inbreeding is the mating of ANY related animals.Line breeding is the controlled version of this . Father to daughter is the base start line .what you do thereafter is down to to what your aims are .

Your origin of the black dog is a few decades out too.Probably down to your age and those you look up to.

Inbreeding is NOT the mating of any animal with a related gene !

Inbreeding is when you put , for instance - Father across daughter. You are not mixing any other bloodline/family into the bitch. You are ''IN'' breeding the same blood as the bitch.......With no outside blood !

Line breeding is when you use a dog on a bitch that has some of the same dogs/bitches in its pedigree , but also has other bloodlines[different bloodlines].

 

can mother son be used instead of father daughter to get a base? would it matter?

Mother across son mating is the same mating as Father across daughter. Both are ''inbreeding'' !

 

Interesting thread. Brother sister mating bred from 2 unrelated dogs, so would that be inbreeding or line breeding?

Brother across sister mating is inbreeding , you are not going outside the blood/family. You are putting the same exact same blood into the bitch that she already has. They both have the exact same bloodlines.

[Cleanspade 3,322]

i am of the opinion that a good line cant be produced in one lifetime. the best lines are strains that have gone through many generations. and are being perpetuating . some for the better and some not so. the old lines do need protecting so these are a great place to start. donnie has some fine smooth russells its to be hoped they land in good hands.for a few generations yet. i have pics in a book in the 1800s of russells and they aint much different to the ones of today. enjoying this thread.

[jonesy 111]

Well i normally keep dogs not bitches always fancied a decent bitch to hopefully get some pups one day,but every time i had a pick in a litter ive always picked dogs and honestly after reading this thread i think ill stick with the dogs,maybe im just a thicko but ill leave the breeding to everyone else.

[compostman 98]

Boys that no what there doing will stick to what there doing me to.

[foxdropper 17,092]

I've only just read through this lot and believe me there are a lot of half truths and urban myths about breeding stock of any sort, it is called linebreeding when it works and inbreeding when it doesn't, I've been breeding decent working terriers for 40yrs now and it really is a case of "suck it and see", when thinking of breeding off a certain dog or bitch we have to look firstly at its working ability, is it that good ?? supposing the answer is yes then you need something at least as good as the one you have, if that other dog or bitch is related then you have to consider 2 different things, "genotype" and "Phenotype", Phenotype is easy because that's its physical charactoristics, ie ; size, shape, etc, then there are the Geno or inherited genetic plus's and faults, if you breed too close you not only double these good genetic points but any bad points as well , the Plummer terrier is suffering many of these now with "perthes syndrome" and internal organ failure, many of our K C registered breeds suffer from this due to small gene pools and breeding off dogs known to carry both types of faults,when starting off a line or strain you need to start with the best dogs that carry no known genetic or physical faults but are also good working stock, there are some very good books that explain genetics but they are boring as f*ck and need to be read and reread until it goes in if you are serious about breeding decent healthy working progeny, we can all breed the odd one in a litter that's excellent but a "one off", it looks and works well but will not necessarily reproduce the stock if the genes aren't there, even after weighing up everything described there are no guarantee's of success, WM

 

 

 

Good post mate .Not to undo it in any way but starting with the right stock is everything .You cannot put in what is not there in the first place .Ive no doubt some lads have turned round mediocre dogs by selective breeding but using a base from a line already in existance ,and lets face it there are plenty you can minimise wastage and be confident in what you are doing .Im the first to admit the hard work was done for me when i started with two old style Nuttal bitches and a non descript dog from a long line of producers .That would be the way to start for anyone thinking of starting a line these days .To use scatter bred base is one hell of a gamble i think and will result in heartache.I am no geneticist but i know from experience what qualities are perpetuated and what gells when bred together .CULLING is and always will be a priority for those serious about it .Never breed for the sake of it and look to the dogs linage for longevity of the line .Cant tell you why but there thats it .Its been mentioned that bitches can get small and i agree which is where the choice of an outcross is very important ,look at the conformation of past litters before committing to use it .Honesty with yourself and others is vital and critism from those you know to be trustworthy must be taken into account .Breed blindness can overtake when you get caught in bubble .Im going through the process of ending one side to a line at the moment through a fault by continually breeding to a dog who,unknown at the time, carried the gene for inherited blindness because he was one hell of a digging dog .The blindness only showed or came to the forefront in an aging bitch but subsequent litters were born with one glassy eye .Work was never affected but its not a quality anyone wants so i will let it die out.Due to the advice given to me 30 years ago i do have another side to this line that isnt affected .What im trying to say is that all the books in the world cant take the place of knowledge earned and passed down .

[Accip74 7,112]

Just out of interest foxdropper, do you feel you improved on that original stock, on both ability & conformation? &

How closely do your dogs now resemble those originals?

[wirral countryman 2,110]

Hello FOXDROPPER, I totally agree on your starting stock statement, I bred a lot of Nuttalls old dogs (30YRS back) into my Plummer's of that time and then bred selected dogs back to the white bodied stock that carried black patches on the head, this taught me a lot on breeding and genetics, where we differ is that I could never cull the pups that were not of the type I was after, I sold them as pets in the local papers and still do, I have had a few back down the years due to cat killing or over aggression, mainly because of a suppressed working instinct and lack of exercise, I would say that even though they weren't of the right physical stock the genetic working instinct was present, these are easy to re-home, as I write this I have 3 generations of my stock that are like peas in a pod in front of the fire and none that look like a Plummer, these are not related in any way to my old lines but a result of a new project to breed decent working Plummers and Russells, I split the line to carry 50% shared blood a few generations ago and I can now breed dogs that look like the breed I want but are genetically similar, more importantly the working instinct is very strong in both, this has let me pick an outcross of the type required when needed, I have a lot of stock now in good working homes that are being tested and are still about to be bred off when needed, in fact I have a perfect Plummer bitch that is coming back when she next comes in season to be bred to a Plummer dog that's working well (a rare beast), if I get a chance later when I get back home I'll put a few pics in, WM

[Glyn..... 5,199]

how i look at it, if we are lucky enough to get our hands on some good blood , its our duty not to f**k it up and thats the working side, i've had the same family of dogs since the early 80's i've line bred and inbred and outcrossed in that time, i now have a young bitch 5 generations from my first brood bitch won't bore you with details , but as long as all you want is workers as good as what you started with don't worry about things such as correct bites, good coats, colour ,short backs and pointy tails just worry about do they work ,

Edited February 8, 2014 by Glyn.....

[Kevj 433]

A friend has 2 terriers that were gifted a few years back,they are brother and sister and are the best workers he has owned.He wants to use the two as a base for his future workers,unfortunately the sire was lost to ground a couple of years back.Could anyone advise as to how they would go about getting started if they were him?

[foxdropper 17,092]

Yes mate ,either get hold of a closely related dog to the one lost or source a dog from working lines and test it .When satisfied put him over the bitch then back over a bitch from that mating provided she is tested too.Base stock is preferably related but as long as it from a producing line youll have to take a chance they gell .Its not no good churning out pups in the hope one will work ,breed a litter and test it and if the base dog is then too old you need to look to a younger brother or tested son . .Best undertaken with a couple of honest mates i think as it saves the need to kennel them all at yours and dosnt draw the wrong sort of attention so much .The whole litter needs testing and culled where necessary an unsavorary job but has to be done if you are to continually produce workers .The reason for culling IMO is that at no time can you be offered back a reject nor can it be bred from to re-enter your program later on.

[foxdropper 17,092]

Just out of interest foxdropper, do you feel you improved on that original stock, on both ability & conformation? &

How closely do your dogs now resemble those original

 

I lost the bull heads at first then introduced a half cross bull pat to better them which i still have in them now,square fronts and strong backs .Working style they are harder than most would like and harder than the base stock, through introduction of old style Wheeler ,something which i dont mind saying im keen to preserve .4 years ago bred two litter on the trot which are carbon copies of what i started with .In my kennels i have a bitch from the last mating ,a decent head on her out of a Stevens x GM dog to a brood bitch ,rough coat and a bitch from six years ago with the same head but smooth coated but work wise they are alike ,3 more dogs, a future stud and 2 broods, are kept with a mate.The stud we use from my side is soon to come back to me as i have a spare kennel and he hates his son with a passion .The litter mates to both are nearby being tested ,The older bitch i have here is the one carrying the blindness gene so wont be bred from but line still strong otherwise