thanks Skycat and Mrs ARD, this particular dog is quite small (for us anyway) being only 61 pounds and 26 inches, so while the lack of size has had him struggling with big heavy stuff sometimes, it is a blessing in this case as they don't seem to have the weight behind them to really "crash and burn" when they have a tumble. Kye has a bitch who is always knocked up, but she weighs 25 pounds more and another 4 inches in size, and just seems very accident prone. Mrs ARD yes please have your friend PM me, I am on holiday with my kids and sisters until the end of November, and Noose is on strict