Crufts 2017.

[lilvixen 26]

Money drives a lot of that ambition wilf ... to even get a dog placed in crufts will give you the platform to demand big money for pups or stud fees .......

I'm sure for a few there is a money motivation but for the most part I can assure you it isn't true.

 

The best in show winner from 2012 had one litter of a single pup, where's the money in that.

Very few people will use that dog that won last night at stud because most people within the breed hate the Kennel that own/bred him.

 

If you have got a minute search the 2017 terrier group on youtube scroll forward to 33.16 minutes and tell me if she was motivated by money?!

[Astanley 11,465]

I just think we should all live and let live when it comes to what we do with our dogs, I'd feel like a hypocrite complaining when other people label my passion as cruel and call for it to be banned only to turn around and do the same to another group of dog enthusiasts.

At the end of the day if folk want a dog that looks a certain way and to spend loads of time and money parading it around a ring why shouldn't that be allowed? Remember the vast majority of show dogs no matter how "deformed" you may think they are live long, healthy lives so where's the massive suffering and cruelty?

 

 

Its not a matter of "thinking " they are deformed ,some breeds are deformed and what's more they are being bred to accentuate their deformities .long and healthy lives ???

[gnasher16 29,649]

 

 

 

 

Dunno whether that was partly in reference to my post. If so, I certainly don't support this stuff but equally I don't really give a toss. Simply it ain't any of my business or concern and I find it a little perplexing why some folk think it is the ruination of working breeds. To me the ruination of working breeds comes from every dogman finding something more suited to their job, leaving few interested in carrying on the breeding of the minority breeds.

 

The deerhound used to be popular as a sighthound for big runs.... until the saluki came to this island.

 

All sorts of terriers used to be well known workers.... until the patterdale/fell came on the scene.

 

The same story of the bullmastiff and doberman with the shepherd taking the fore and today the eastern lines and the malinois take it's place.

 

And again with a large variety of old retriever and spaniel breeds which the success of the Lab, Cocker and Springer basically put an end to.

 

In some instances the job changed slightly with legislation or culture so forcing the change in favoured breed. The fact remains though that for any given sport/job there is a selection of breeds/lines out there that have survived because they are the best suited to it. It's perhaps a shame that once suitable breeds no longer have capable workers but to me that's just sentimentality.

 

You're right these hardcore show folk are being wilfully cruel, but that ain't any of my business frankly, neither does it affect me or the life I love to live.

 

Yes it was in reference to yourself,Wilf....and anyone else who makes excuses for what is essentially a cruel and needless practise and as likeminded folk who share a love and respect for dogs i dont really understand your sentiments......whos talking about preserving dog breeds ? not me......i dont know enough about certain lines and strains of working dog breeds to comment on whether they are being improved or ruined............im talking about dogs on an individual basis not representatives of breeds and how they should act/look through the generations.....these people are purposely being cruel to dogs on a massive scale how can that be justified ?

 

All this " well theres unscrupulous lurcher breeders as well you know "......so f****n what 2 wrongs dont make a right if theres poor lurcher breeders then say so dont use it as an excuse to allow show people to get away with what they are doing.

 

No its not our business and i wont be writing to my Mp about it but i certainly wont promote it or say its ok.

Edited March 13, 2017 by gnasher16

[Born Hunter 17,638]

 

 

 

 

 

Dunno whether that was partly in reference to my post. If so, I certainly don't support this stuff but equally I don't really give a toss. Simply it ain't any of my business or concern and I find it a little perplexing why some folk think it is the ruination of working breeds. To me the ruination of working breeds comes from every dogman finding something more suited to their job, leaving few interested in carrying on the breeding of the minority breeds.

 

The deerhound used to be popular as a sighthound for big runs.... until the saluki came to this island.

 

All sorts of terriers used to be well known workers.... until the patterdale/fell came on the scene.

 

The same story of the bullmastiff and doberman with the shepherd taking the fore and today the eastern lines and the malinois take it's place.

 

And again with a large variety of old retriever and spaniel breeds which the success of the Lab, Cocker and Springer basically put an end to.

 

In some instances the job changed slightly with legislation or culture so forcing the change in favoured breed. The fact remains though that for any given sport/job there is a selection of breeds/lines out there that have survived because they are the best suited to it. It's perhaps a shame that once suitable breeds no longer have capable workers but to me that's just sentimentality.

 

You're right these hardcore show folk are being wilfully cruel, but that ain't any of my business frankly, neither does it affect me or the life I love to live.

 

Yes it was in reference to yourself,Wilf....and anyone else who makes excuses for what is essentially a cruel and needless practise and as likeminded folk who share a love and respect for dogs i dont really understand your sentiments......whos talking about preserving dog breeds ? not me......i dont know enough about certain lines and strains of working dog breeds to comment on whether they are being improved or ruined............im talking about dogs on an individual basis not representatives of breeds and how they should act/look through the generations.....these people are purposely being cruel to dogs on a massive scale how can that be justified ?

 

All this " well theres unscrupulous lurcher breeders as well you know "......so f****n what 2 wrongs dont make a right if theres poor lurcher breeders then say so dont use it as an excuse to allow show people to get away with what they are doing.

 

No its not our business and i wont be writing to my Mp about it but i certainly wont promote it or say its ok.

 

 

Well then, with all that in mind I have to question why it's directed at me. My post was explicitly about folks moaning about the KC ruining working breeds, not about cruelty. And if you want my opinion on cruelty then I agree with you, like I said, I don't support all this Crufts or breeding dogs for daft looks business, I DO NOT justify it. I justify minding my own business though, up until the point where someone elses business affects mine.

[jok 3,036]

Have just seen a pic of the Cocker section winner which also has won the Gundog section. You'd be hard pressed to know it is a dog at all. WTF is that all about.? Jok.

[WILF 44,300]

Gnasher, you won't change human nature and the fact is 99% of people ain't like people on here, they don't like killing things and that's all there is too it mate.

I said to my daughter the other day, if you want to go and do your little dog shows that's fine but never ever change what that dog does or should look like to fit in, you win or loose with it looking like and being a working dog.

 

I don't feel in the least bit bad about that myself, the dog will go there looking like it should and if it's shit at its work its getting shot and that's the end of the story.......what I paid, the distance I travelled to get it or what it's worth as is or in pups won't even cross my mind for a millisecond and that's the truth.

[gnasher16 29,649]

Mate, I completely agree with nearly all of that so don't get me wrong but to my mind (and it is only my opinion) if you take that to its logical conclusion then most people shouldn't havenpet dogs either.......and we all know they do, will continue to do so........something's just exist right or wrong.

How many time have you looked at a dog over the park and gone "f***ing hell, state of that"........we all have but that's life.

 

And a bit of my point was, there's not much honesty and loads of hypocrisy in the dog game as I'm sure you know........I'm sure you have seen these lads with breeds that would be classed as sporting breeds walking about, they may let it have a ruck in the park with a staff for 20 seconds or it rinses the local cat and all of a sudden it's a legend to be bred from and really it wouldn't last 5 minutes against a proper sporting dog kept by a dedicated owner of such animals.

And it's the same for all working dogs, and yet these folk slag off the show set (with good reason granted) but they are not putting in the time and money to fully test their own mutt at anything like the levels of the people they slag off.

 

Wilf if shitbags exist in the " working dog game " then call them shitbags............dont use it as a yard stick to excuse others.

 

Yes im sure theres unscrupulous working dog breeders.......but that doesnt make cruel practise in the show dog world any more tolerable.

 

Crufts is a show on national television watched and promoted by millions...........do you think a couple of lads spinning a few dogs out over the park will receive such a recommendation ?.......yet i know which one contains the most cruelty and so do you !

[mushroom 12,388]

I had a pop at someone the other day for calling my dog skinny/underweight etc (he's just over 35kg and build wise is pure, lean muscle). She stood there in-front of other people in the park yelling I was cruel, whilst holding some poor, screaming, fat fuucking excuse of a dog, seemingly panting it's last. the temp was only about 14degrees ffs :laugh:

 

To be fair most in the park told her she was a complete moron, with one bloke offering to help her slim her dog down with a few proper walks :laugh:

 

What boils my piss is it is always all these pedigree owners, with fat shit excuses of dogs, who chirp shoite.

[gnasher16 29,649]

 

 

 

 

 

 

Dunno whether that was partly in reference to my post. If so, I certainly don't support this stuff but equally I don't really give a toss. Simply it ain't any of my business or concern and I find it a little perplexing why some folk think it is the ruination of working breeds. To me the ruination of working breeds comes from every dogman finding something more suited to their job, leaving few interested in carrying on the breeding of the minority breeds.

 

The deerhound used to be popular as a sighthound for big runs.... until the saluki came to this island.

 

All sorts of terriers used to be well known workers.... until the patterdale/fell came on the scene.

 

The same story of the bullmastiff and doberman with the shepherd taking the fore and today the eastern lines and the malinois take it's place.

 

And again with a large variety of old retriever and spaniel breeds which the success of the Lab, Cocker and Springer basically put an end to.

 

In some instances the job changed slightly with legislation or culture so forcing the change in favoured breed. The fact remains though that for any given sport/job there is a selection of breeds/lines out there that have survived because they are the best suited to it. It's perhaps a shame that once suitable breeds no longer have capable workers but to me that's just sentimentality.

 

You're right these hardcore show folk are being wilfully cruel, but that ain't any of my business frankly, neither does it affect me or the life I love to live.

 

Yes it was in reference to yourself,Wilf....and anyone else who makes excuses for what is essentially a cruel and needless practise and as likeminded folk who share a love and respect for dogs i dont really understand your sentiments......whos talking about preserving dog breeds ? not me......i dont know enough about certain lines and strains of working dog breeds to comment on whether they are being improved or ruined............im talking about dogs on an individual basis not representatives of breeds and how they should act/look through the generations.....these people are purposely being cruel to dogs on a massive scale how can that be justified ?

 

All this " well theres unscrupulous lurcher breeders as well you know "......so f****n what 2 wrongs dont make a right if theres poor lurcher breeders then say so dont use it as an excuse to allow show people to get away with what they are doing.

 

No its not our business and i wont be writing to my Mp about it but i certainly wont promote it or say its ok.

 

 

Well then, with all that in mind I have to question why it's directed at me. My post was explicitly about folks moaning about the KC ruining working breeds, not about cruelty. And if you want my opinion on cruelty then I agree with you, like I said, I don't support all this Crufts or breeding dogs for daft looks business, I DO NOT justify it. I justify minding my own business though, up until the point where someone elses business affects mine.

 

I mind my own business......it doesnt mean i wont tell it for what it is on a forum

 

It was directed at you because you said you dont understand why people get pissy about the kc and crufts.........dont panic chief you dont need your solicitor present or anything its just a natter on the web that's all .....and dont start slinging words with more than 3 syllables at me either i know your game !

[gnasher16 29,649]

Gnasher, you won't change human nature and the fact is 99% of people ain't like people on here, they don't like killing things and that's all there is too it mate.

I said to my daughter the other day, if you want to go and do your little dog shows that's fine but never ever change what that dog does or should look like to fit in, you win or loose with it looking like and being a working dog.

 

I don't feel in the least bit bad about that myself, the dog will go there looking like it should and if it's shit at its work its getting shot and that's the end of the story.......what I paid, the distance I travelled to get it or what it's worth as is or in pups won't even cross my mind for a millisecond and that's the truth.

That's the whole point Wilf.......that judge is going to lie to your daughter he,s going to give her bad advice and the wrong outlook on dogs.......are you willing to tell her the truth and explain to your daughter when you get home that unfortunately her dog didn't win because its face isnt squashed up enough enabling it to breath much easier than it really should.....and therefore being a crap dog it didn't win because it isnt unhealthy enough ?....because that's the truth of it.....come on Wilf i dont know you well but i know your not a fool to your own intelligence.

Edited March 13, 2017 by gnasher16

[Born Hunter 17,638]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Dunno whether that was partly in reference to my post. If so, I certainly don't support this stuff but equally I don't really give a toss. Simply it ain't any of my business or concern and I find it a little perplexing why some folk think it is the ruination of working breeds. To me the ruination of working breeds comes from every dogman finding something more suited to their job, leaving few interested in carrying on the breeding of the minority breeds.

 

The deerhound used to be popular as a sighthound for big runs.... until the saluki came to this island.

 

All sorts of terriers used to be well known workers.... until the patterdale/fell came on the scene.

 

The same story of the bullmastiff and doberman with the shepherd taking the fore and today the eastern lines and the malinois take it's place.

 

And again with a large variety of old retriever and spaniel breeds which the success of the Lab, Cocker and Springer basically put an end to.

 

In some instances the job changed slightly with legislation or culture so forcing the change in favoured breed. The fact remains though that for any given sport/job there is a selection of breeds/lines out there that have survived because they are the best suited to it. It's perhaps a shame that once suitable breeds no longer have capable workers but to me that's just sentimentality.

 

You're right these hardcore show folk are being wilfully cruel, but that ain't any of my business frankly, neither does it affect me or the life I love to live.

 

Yes it was in reference to yourself,Wilf....and anyone else who makes excuses for what is essentially a cruel and needless practise and as likeminded folk who share a love and respect for dogs i dont really understand your sentiments......whos talking about preserving dog breeds ? not me......i dont know enough about certain lines and strains of working dog breeds to comment on whether they are being improved or ruined............im talking about dogs on an individual basis not representatives of breeds and how they should act/look through the generations.....these people are purposely being cruel to dogs on a massive scale how can that be justified ?

 

All this " well theres unscrupulous lurcher breeders as well you know "......so f****n what 2 wrongs dont make a right if theres poor lurcher breeders then say so dont use it as an excuse to allow show people to get away with what they are doing.

 

No its not our business and i wont be writing to my Mp about it but i certainly wont promote it or say its ok.

 

 

Well then, with all that in mind I have to question why it's directed at me. My post was explicitly about folks moaning about the KC ruining working breeds, not about cruelty. And if you want my opinion on cruelty then I agree with you, like I said, I don't support all this Crufts or breeding dogs for daft looks business, I DO NOT justify it. I justify minding my own business though, up until the point where someone elses business affects mine.

 

I mind my own business......it doesnt mean i wont tell it for what it is on a forum

 

It was directed at you because you said you dont understand why people get pissy about the kc and crufts.........dont panic chief you dont need your solicitor present or anything its just a natter on the web that's all .....and dont start slinging words with more than 3 syllables at me either i know your game !

 

 

LOL, okay there's a bit of confusion here. I thought that my sentences following that one would put it into context (I should have had my attorney look at that!). Most folk seem to get pissy about ruining working breeds, not about the cruelty. The following two sentences gave that context I thought.

 

And my "mind my own business" point wasn't a subtle dig at you, it was me explaining why I don't care about the cruelty aspect that you bring up. I care about cruelty but this particular topic I see as a bit dodgey ground, glass houses and all that, so basically I don't care.

 

Look, my post was directed at folk that blame the showing bunch for ruining the american cocker spaniel and the manchester terrier and your post is aimed at the folk that justify breeding deformed dogs. There ain't much for us to talk about there, two different subjects.

Edited March 13, 2017 by Born Hunter

[WILF 44,300]

 

Gnasher, you won't change human nature and the fact is 99% of people ain't like people on here, they don't like killing things and that's all there is too it mate.

I said to my daughter the other day, if you want to go and do your little dog shows that's fine but never ever change what that dog does or should look like to fit in, you win or loose with it looking like and being a working dog.

I don't feel in the least bit bad about that myself, the dog will go there looking like it should and if it's shit at its work its getting shot and that's the end of the story.......what I paid, the distance I travelled to get it or what it's worth as is or in pups won't even cross my mind for a millisecond and that's the truth.

 

That's the whole point Wilf.......that judge is going to lie to your daughter he,s going to give her bad advice and the wrong outlook on dogs.......are you willing to tell her the truth and explain to your daughter when you get home that unfortunately her dog didn't win because its face isnt squashed up enough enabling it to breath much easier than it really should.....and therefore being a crap dog it didn't win because it isnt unhealthy enough ?....because that's the truth of it.....come on Wilf i dont know you well but i know your not a fool to your own intelligence.

I get you mate, I really do but yes I will do exactly that and she can then make up her own mind......and hopefully that's another win for working dogs in the long run

[WILF 44,300]

In fact I will probably let my daughter read this thread, she loves he's reading about dog related stuff and she certainly isn't shy about saying "dad, you are being a complete prat !" Lol

As long as they know right from wrong, that's the main job in my book.

[gnasher16 29,649]

 

 

 

LOL, okay there's a bit of confusion here. I thought that my sentences following that one would put it into context (I should have had my attorney look at that!). Most folk seem to get pissy about ruining working breeds, not about the cruelty. The following two sentences gave that context I thought.

 

And my "mind my own business" point wasn't a subtle dig at you, it was me explaining why I don't care about the cruelty aspect that you bring up. I care about cruelty but this particular topic I see as a bit dodgey ground, glass houses and all that, so basically I don't care.

 

Look, my post was directed at folk that blame the showing bunch for ruining the american cocker spaniel and the manchester terrier and your post is aimed at the folk that justify breeding deformed dogs. There ain't much for us to talk about there, two different subjects.

 

As far as im aware this is not a recorded conversation under oathe,we haven't just tapped anyone on the shoulder its just an exchange of opinions on a web forum so i dont quite follow with the " minding my own business until someones business effects mine "

 

As far as glass houses go well if you believe you take part in cruel practises with animals then yes i guess you shouldnt be calling them....if you dont then tell it how it is i dont know why folk are so didgy around calling a spade a spade.

 

Showing dogs on the whole is cruel and unnecessary whether its Cocker Spaniels,Manchester Terriers or Chihuahas its f****n outrageous that such needless exploitation of animals in this day and age can receive national tv coverage it should be as underground as any other such controversial practise.

[gnasher16 29,649]

 

I get you mate, I really do but yes I will do exactly that and she can then make up her own mind......and hopefully that's another win for working dogs in the long run

 

Fair enough my parenting approach was more " dont cross the road with your eyes shut " because i thought it made more sense than saying " try it and make your own mind up " ........only messing mate who am i to say whats right and wrong