Creating A New Line Of Working Terrier?

[Lenmcharristar 9,183]

 

Most digging dogs are already a mixture of breeds they throw black because it's a dominant colour. A lot of lads like to cover up the fact that there is border,Russel and Lakey blood only a couple of generations back in their lines.

 

Nonsense, yes all types have other blood in their ancestory. Nobody's denying that.

But to suggest that there's Border and Russell only a COUPLE of generations back in Fell lines is bullshit.

 

I've had my line for around 8 generations and my friend who's had the line longer has had them a few generations before that.

I know the couple of outcrosses I used inside out so my question is ?

Did someone sneak in to my yard in the last few years with their Russell or Border stud and let it mate my bitches ??????????????

 

Lads who always come out with the remark that there's no one with terriers that have been the same type to the same type for generation after generation are always those who are jealous of those who have something to be proud off.

neil if you dug over a dog far superior to your own that was say a border lakey would you snub his service of your bitches in preference to your own line or would you out cross?

[Francie 6,362]

Good question len?

[eastcoast 3,729]

The plucky thread got me thinking, is there anybody using terriers from mixed parents that graft, no fancy names in their pedigrees, just both workers, and if you were to create a line what would you use? By mixed parents I mean bitsa terriers, and is there anybody using bitsas that work and produce workers? Surely that's how they started off. When we were growing up it was never looking to keep type, it was just put working dog over working bitch no matter what breed.

If you found one good terrier dog from unknown breeding that did well, and then a bitch from unknown that did well, and so bred from them. And the resulting terriers where tried and proved good, so bred from. Is that not creating a line ? My question would be where did these dogs of unknown blood come from ? If they are any good probably from well bred stock a few generations back. Unless KC registered stuff. Then you would have something out of the ordinary. They didn't walk off the Ark.

[jiggy 3,207]

 

 

The plucky thread got me thinking, is there anybody using terriers from mixed parents that graft, no fancy names in their pedigrees, just both workers, and if you were to create a line what would you use? By mixed parents I mean bitsa terriers, and is there anybody using bitsas that work and produce workers? Surely that's how they started off. When we were growing up it was never looking to keep type, it was just put working dog over working bitch no matter what breed.

If you found one good terrier dog from unknown breeding that did well, and then a bitch from unknown that did well, and so bred from them. And the resulting terriers where tried and proved good, so bred from. Is that not creating a line ? My question would be where did these dogs of unknown blood come from ? If they are any good probably from well bred stock a few generations back. Unless KC registered stuff. Then you would have something out of the ordinary. They didn't walk off the Ark.

The idea is to lie about where they originated so that the line only started in your yard then you get all the credit for creating it when really your just working someone else's line.???

[Lenmcharristar 9,183]

 

The plucky thread got me thinking, is there anybody using terriers from mixed parents that graft, no fancy names in their pedigrees, just both workers, and if you were to create a line what would you use? By mixed parents I mean bitsa terriers, and is there anybody using bitsas that work and produce workers? Surely that's how they started off. When we were growing up it was never looking to keep type, it was just put working dog over working bitch no matter what breed.

 

If you found one good terrier dog from unknown breeding that did well, and then a bitch from unknown that did well, and so bred from them. And the resulting terriers where tried and proved good, so bred from. Is that not creating a line ? My question would be where did these dogs of unknown blood come from ? If they are any good probably from well bred stock a few generations back. Unless KC registered stuff. Then you would have something out of the ordinary. They didn't walk off the Ark.

isnt that how they all came about?

[foxdropper 17,092]

You scatter bred fanatics are missing the goal mouth by a mile .Where are these wonder dogs bred from the postmans poodle over Satans daughter.

Dogs need not be wearing cloaks and shiney pants to get the job done ,it really is not a miracle a dog stays til dug too. It is what working terriers do ,real working terriers and is expected .If I'm out and I see a dog thats doing well ,that is, staying til dug to ,then no matter what colour or size it is, it is no better than what I already have and will not be used in any breeding plan for fear of jeopardising years of breeding the right sort .

The whole point of line breeding a type ,breed is to perpetrate the working genes by keeping and breeding tight to known stock .

That special dog people covet is the norm in many yards ,yards that line breed a type .

Nobody and I can speak for everyone I know who has ever line bred anything ,has ever gone outside the type for an outcross .To do so is unthinkable .

[jiggy 3,207]

You scatter bred fanatics are missing the goal mouth by a mile .Where are these wonder dogs bred from the postmans poodle over Satans daughter.

Dogs need not be wearing cloaks and shiney pants to get the job done ,it really is not a miracle a dog stays til dug too. It is what working terriers do ,real working terriers and is expected .If I'm out and I see a dog thats doing well ,that is, staying til dug to ,then no matter what colour or size it is, it is no better than what I already have and will not be used in any breeding plan for fear of jeopardising years of breeding the right sort .

The whole point of line breeding a type ,breed is to perpetrate the working genes by keeping and breeding tight to known stock .

That special dog people covet is the norm in many yards ,yards that line breed a type .

Nobody and I can speak for everyone I know who has ever line bred anything ,has ever gone outside the type for an outcross .To do so is unthinkable .

nobody is disputing that but I think what len is saying is that before the start of every line 2 unrelated dogs were used at some stage then bred back into themselves. Obviously if you already have an established line you don't need to go outside it. Line bred Bull cross lurchers wouldn't exist for example unless someone had used 2 different types at the beginning. If someone had not had the confidence to step outside the box then the patterdale breed would never have been created. Was Frank buck and Cyril breay idiots for outcrossing from other huntpacks to unrelated dogs and different types.

[neil cooney 10,415]

 

 

Most digging dogs are already a mixture of breeds they throw black because it's a dominant colour. A lot of lads like to cover up the fact that there is border,Russel and Lakey blood only a couple of generations back in their lines.

Nonsense, yes all types have other blood in their ancestory. Nobody's denying that.

But to suggest that there's Border and Russell only a COUPLE of generations back in Fell lines is bullshit.

 

I've had my line for around 8 generations and my friend who's had the line longer has had them a few generations before that.

I know the couple of outcrosses I used inside out so my question is ?

Did someone sneak in to my yard in the last few years with their Russell or Border stud and let it mate my bitches ??????????????

 

Lads who always come out with the remark that there's no one with terriers that have been the same type to the same type for generation after generation are always those who are jealous of those who have something to be proud off.

neil if you dug over a dog far superior to your own that was say a border lakey would you snub his service of your bitches in preference to your own line or would you out cross?

 

Not a chance.

20 years ago I might have used a good black and tan or red terrier because there were plenty of good ones from good lines but nowadays good black and tans ,borders and a lot of russells tend to be flukes.

That's the sad truth.

I've said this on here many times before and make no appologies again for quoting Don Mayfield,

"If you took a gallon of ice cream and put a spoonful of dog shit in it and stirred it up ,what have you got ?

You certainly aint got ice cream."

That spoon full of shit will pop up at some stage.

Clever breeders not only look for a good solid worker that will enhance their line but they also want a dog that will be compatible with his bitch and the man who's working with the same blood all the time already has the advantage over the chap who's taking a chance.

 

JMHO.

[Lenmcharristar 9,183]

 

 

 

Most digging dogs are already a mixture of breeds they throw black because it's a dominant colour. A lot of lads like to cover up the fact that there is border,Russel and Lakey blood only a couple of generations back in their lines.

 

Nonsense, yes all types have other blood in their ancestory. Nobody's denying that.

But to suggest that there's Border and Russell only a COUPLE of generations back in Fell lines is bullshit.

 

I've had my line for around 8 generations and my friend who's had the line longer has had them a few generations before that.

I know the couple of outcrosses I used inside out so my question is ?

Did someone sneak in to my yard in the last few years with their Russell or Border stud and let it mate my bitches ??????????????

 

Lads who always come out with the remark that there's no one with terriers that have been the same type to the same type for generation after generation are always those who are jealous of those who have something to be proud off.

neil if you dug over a dog far superior to your own that was say a border lakey would you snub his service of your bitches in preference to your own line or would you out cross?

Not a chance.

20 years ago I might have used a good black and tan or red terrier because there were plenty of good ones from good lines but nowadays good black and tans ,borders and a lot of russells tend to be flukes.

That's the sad truth.

I've said this on here many times before and make no appologies again for quoting Don Mayfield,

"If you took a gallon of ice cream and put a spoonful of dog shit in it and stirred it up ,what have you got ?

You certainly aint got ice cream."

That spoon full of shit will pop up at some stage.

Clever breeders not only look for a good solid worker that will enhance their line but they also want a dog that will be compatible with his bitch and the man who's working with the same blood all the time already has the advantage over the chap who's taking a chance.

 

JMHO.

good explanation mate

[Lenmcharristar 9,183]

 

You scatter bred fanatics are missing the goal mouth by a mile .Where are these wonder dogs bred from the postmans poodle over Satans daughter.

Dogs need not be wearing cloaks and shiney pants to get the job done ,it really is not a miracle a dog stays til dug too. It is what working terriers do ,real working terriers and is expected .If I'm out and I see a dog thats doing well ,that is, staying til dug to ,then no matter what colour or size it is, it is no better than what I already have and will not be used in any breeding plan for fear of jeopardising years of breeding the right sort .

The whole point of line breeding a type ,breed is to perpetrate the working genes by keeping and breeding tight to known stock .

That special dog people covet is the norm in many yards ,yards that line breed a type .

Nobody and I can speak for everyone I know who has ever line bred anything ,has ever gone outside the type for an outcross .To do so is unthinkable .

nobody is disputing that but I think what len is saying is that before the start of every line 2 unrelated dogs were used at some stage then bred back into themselves. Obviously if you already have an established line you don't need to go outside it. Line bred Bull cross lurchers wouldn't exist for example unless someone had used 2 different types at the beginning. If someone had not had the confidence to step outside the box then the patterdale breed would never have been created. Was Frank buck and Cyril breay idiots for outcrossing from other huntpacks to unrelated dogs and different types.

yes mate you said it better lol

[Dead Eyes 680]

Don Mayfield is perhaps the greatest conditioner of all time. But he wasn't known as the greatest breeder by a long shot

[Lenmcharristar 9,183]

Don Mayfield is perhaps the greatest conditioner of all time. But he wasn't known as the greatest breeder by a long shot

line breeding at some stage needs new blood or else it will stagnate and that's no good for improvement or evolution of the breed. So by out crossing are ya not making subtle changes to alter your original line? Which means they're taking different roads to get the similar end product? Just my thoughts

[Dead Eyes 680]

Sort of, yeah.

 

These breeders on here saying that you shouldn't outcross, including those who I really respect as breeders like Foxdropper and Dillydog, I *presume* are saying this because the lines and dogs behind the outcross wonderdog are unknown

 

If you have an outcross Russel from a man you hunt with for years and know his traits and dogs then adding it to your Patterdales *if it woks the same* is fine

 

But everyone works for their own reasons. Some need size and some sleight, some need bayers and some need something else. Some need leggy and some need short.

 

If the Russel isn't ALL of the things that you desire, but does work in a similar manner, then it's no longer what you're looking for. This is why every man keeps their own preferred line as they're different

 

Me myself personally I have a very small bitch. If she works out then I may put a half x over her as I may need something bigger than her further down the line

[Plucky1 1,119]

F.D. has come closest on the outcross and explaining worker/worker problem, you can witness the best working terrier ever and yet bred to good other known workers still produces sh*te, these dogs have been scatter bred in the way most have (unknown lineage), but breeding 2 terriers of known lineage (at least 4/5 generations) and work ethic is the better option everyday, the percentage of workers is much higher, most lads that introduce an outcross to a known line have already split a line with an outcross a couple of generations back and kept either a dog or bitch to breed off later,so the percentages straight away are reduced on any new blood, I run 2 separate lines if you look at my thread, some look like "Russells" but they are still 100% Plummers, a lot mix up how a dog looks physically (phenotype) and the genetic make up (genotype), the physical characteristics are there for all to see but the blood it carries is not until bred then all becomes apparent, I have crossed and experimented on every cross down the years to see for myself what the outcomes are, photographed every litter, in fact I posted a thread last year on it until I removed it when the numpties kicked off, WM

Edited February 22, 2017 by Plucky1

[jiggy 3,207]

I think we are missing the point here the man is talking about a new line not how to contain an existing line which shouldn't need changing if it's doing what it is meant to be doing. Lads that had white dogs infused Bull into them then many generations later of breeding back into itself good working lines were created. Similar to lads that put Bull into patterdales then bred back in so lines were formed from 2 different types it's nothing new the success rate will not be as high as established lines but with a ruthless approach it can be achieved in time. How many men in the past fcuked up their own lines because they were too proud to look outside their own yard when better dogs were available. An infusion of new blood is not always a bad thing.