Terrier Inbreeding

[Bryan 1,361]

Great post Neil,

it confirms the most fervent belief of THL terrier breeders, "Breed 'em tight"

 

But the devil is in the details, Frankel the greatest ever race horse was scatter bred. Oh SHIT!!!! (only 7 common ancestors in a 5 generation pedigree of 62) http://www.pedigreequery.com/frankel3

 

It's a interesting example though? Probably more to do with one mans genius and ability to see something different to everyone else when looking at an animal. Vincent O'Brein from Cork was the guy over 50 years ago that decided that the Northern Dancer horse would dominate flat race breeding. He got as much cash together as he could to buy up every son of Northern Dancer that he could. Northern dancer was scatter bred too!

But since 1994 the male bloodline of every Prix de l'Arc de Triomphe winner goes back to Nearco, his son Nasrullah, and his grandson Northern Dancer.

 

Goto keep and open mind and if you got a good dog breed like hell off him.

[compostman 98]

I crossed my patterdale dog with a Lakeland bitch then years after I bred my patterdale dog to his daughter from the litter pups were very good strong good heads and more bone from the patterdale dog this his what I wanted.there was one bitch pup out of six pups with under shot jaw.not now but later on there's a dog pup from the first cross matting made a real good dog work wise.could I put him over a bitch from the father to daughter matting of would that be to close.

[neil cooney 10,415]

Fair play Bryan, not the tightest of breeding but a bit of line breeding non the less. I was expecting to see Nijinsky in that pedigree, the horse that everyone told Vincent not to buy as he had 4 white feet, but he did and the rest as they say is history.

One thing they do in the horse breeding industry and I've read that breeders of bulldogs and game fowl do too is that when they notice that two different families when crossed "click" they regularly repeat the cross.

ie. when family A crossed over family B has a higher than average success rate they cross dogs, horses or chickens from family A to B again and again while keeping family A bred tight and family B tight. The chicken men call it a battle cross and when results are looked back at time and time again it's a recipe for success.

[AXUM 255]

Fair play Bryan, not the tightest of breeding but a bit of line breeding non the less. I was expecting to see Nijinsky in that pedigree, the horse that everyone told Vincent not to buy as he had 4 white feet, but he did and the rest as they say is history.

One thing they do in the horse breeding industry and I've read that breeders of bulldogs and game fowl do too is that when they notice that two different families when crossed "click" they regularly repeat the cross.

ie. when family A crossed over family B has a higher than average success rate they cross dogs, horses or chickens from family A to B again and again while keeping family A bred tight and family B tight. The chicken men call it a battle cross and when results are looked back at time and time again it's a recipe for success.

 

battle cross is a 4 way cross

[neil cooney 10,415]

Sorry AXUM but a battle cross is a cross made by putting two inbred families across one another.

A four way cross is exactly that, a four way cross.

[marshman 7,756]

Fair play Bryan, not the tightest of breeding but a bit of line breeding non the less. I was expecting to see Nijinsky in that pedigree, the horse that everyone told Vincent not to buy as he had 4 white feet, but he did and the rest as they say is history.

One thing they do in the horse breeding industry and I've read that breeders of bulldogs and game fowl do too is that when they notice that two different families when crossed "click" they regularly repeat the cross.

ie. when family A crossed over family B has a higher than average success rate they cross dogs, horses or chickens from family A to B again and again while keeping family A bred tight and family B tight. The chicken men call it a battle cross and when results are looked back at time and time again it's a recipe for success.

Good stockmanship wether fowl game dogs or horses have a lot of similaritys . On the shoulders of giants we stand ! Another Good post Neil .

[dogs-n-natives 1,181]

Fair play Bryan, not the tightest of breeding but a bit of line breeding non the less. I was expecting to see Nijinsky in that pedigree, the horse that everyone told Vincent not to buy as he had 4 white feet, but he did and the rest as they say is history.

One thing they do in the horse breeding industry and I've read that breeders of bulldogs and game fowl do too is that when they notice that two different families when crossed "click" they regularly repeat the cross.

ie. when family A crossed over family B has a higher than average success rate they cross dogs, horses or chickens from family A to B again and again while keeping family A bred tight and family B tight. The chicken men call it a battle cross and when results are looked back at time and time again it's a recipe for success.

Got to agree with that...

[jeemes 3,547]

I crossed my patterdale dog with a Lakeland bitch then years after I bred my patterdale dog to his daughter from the litter pups were very good strong good heads and more bone from the patterdale dog this his what I wanted.there was one bitch pup out of six pups with under shot jaw.not now but later on there's a dog pup from the first cross matting made a real good dog work wise.could I put him over a bitch from the father to daughter matting of would that be to close.

It would not be too close if dog and bitch are strong and healthy and dont share any faults that you wouldnt want repeated or stamping in.

[foxdropper 17,092]

What Neil describes is basically what i do with two seperate tight bred lines that were created from same type bitches,different dogs.Never knew it had a name but i do now.The two were created as insurance originally but now they are both doing the job.It is ,however ,very tempting to use a good dog exclusively and so a plan is needed to prevent them becoming one.

[Griz 89]

Neil, you are spot on!.....Tight breeding , extreme selection for breeding dogs (and bitches), and crosses to proven well bred lines......There is no such thing as too inbred, only breedings that work out or don't work out.......Keep selecting the best workers of relatives , be they brother, daughter, uncle , grandparent, etc.....The offspring will be your guide.

[tinytiger 822]

Great post Neil,

it confirms the most fervent belief of THL terrier breeders, "Breed 'em tight"

 

But the devil is in the details, Frankel the greatest ever race horse was scatter bred. Oh SHIT!!!! (only 7 common ancestors in a 5 generation pedigree of 62) http://www.pedigreequery.com/frankel3

 

It's a interesting example though? Probably more to do with one mans genius and ability to see something different to everyone else when looking at an animal. Vincent O'Brein from Cork was the guy over 50 years ago that decided that the Northern Dancer horse would dominate flat race breeding. He got as much cash together as he could to buy up every son of Northern Dancer that he could. Northern dancer was scatter bred too!

But since 1994 the male bloodline of every Prix de l'Arc de Triomphe winner goes back to Nearco, his son Nasrullah, and his grandson Northern Dancer.

 

Goto keep and open mind and if you got a good dog breed like hell off him.

i think northern dancer was owned by a syndicate who would only agree to him having a limited book at stud--they bought up all of his sons,shutteled them between ireland,japan and australia so they could be covering mares all the time..good buisness plan lol

[neil cooney 10,415]

I just thought I'd bring this thread back up as it's very similar to the current thread on Families/LInes and inbreeding Vs linebreeding etc.

There's some good points in it.

[Shamo 319]

Fair play Bryan, not the tightest of breeding but a bit of line breeding non the less. I was expecting to see Nijinsky in that pedigree, the horse that everyone told Vincent not to buy as he had 4 white feet, but he did and the rest as they say is history.

One thing they do in the horse breeding industry and I've read that breeders of bulldogs and game fowl do too is that when they notice that two different families when crossed "click" they regularly repeat the cross.

ie. when family A crossed over family B has a higher than average success rate they cross dogs, horses or chickens from family A to B again and again while keeping family A bred tight and family B tight. The chicken men call it a battle cross and when results are looked back at time and time again it's a recipe for success.

 

Fair play Bryan, not the tightest of breeding but a bit of line breeding non the less. I was expecting to see Nijinsky in that pedigree, the horse that everyone told Vincent not to buy as he had 4 white feet, but he did and the rest as they say is history.

One thing they do in the horse breeding industry and I've read that breeders of bulldogs and game fowl do too is that when they notice that two different families when crossed "click" they regularly repeat the cross.

ie. when family A crossed over family B has a higher than average success rate they cross dogs, horses or chickens from family A to B again and again while keeping family A bred tight and family B tight. The chicken men call it a battle cross and when results are looked back at time and time again it's a recipe for success.

Most Terrier mens ethos is different to some performance animal practitioners'. It's not often you hear the term 'Brood stock' in the digging Terrier World. It's not often you would see a pair of related non working Terriers in a Pen and bred, where the Offspring are the only ones worked.

In the Horse World a well used Stallion may never have Raced, but the ancestry and blood is there. Many examples of well bred Pet Terriers having Litters with Pups worth feeding. Sometimes breeding can be down to chances and gambles.......when the blood is there.

[Glyn..... 5,199]

i watched a program the other night on fighting bulls the bull used never saw the ring but he was used over 40 cows , because he was there type i should think up to 40 brothers may well of made it to the ring ,in the wild male animals cover dozens of females because they are the best producing the next generation both male and female the best survive and go on to breed if the best are that males sons and daughters they in turn will breed together, half brother half sister , brother sister father daughter and mother son , although likening battle breeds to working terriers is a way to prove breeding , a terrier is expected to have a longer working life so courage alone can sometimes be there down fall.

i've had chats with a few who knew the Breay/buck bloodline, and All told me it was Mr Breay who practiced the line breeding Mr Buck was not so keen on it and once he was breeding on his own he was more likely to breed like to like and the line disappeared , i don't know this to be gospel only what i was told ?

[Rebel 831]

i watched a program the other night on fighting bulls the bull used never saw the ring but he was used over 40 cows , because he was there type i should think up to 40 brothers may well of made it to the ring ,in the wild male animals cover dozens of females because they are the best producing the next generation both male and female the best survive and go on to breed if the best are that males sons and daughters they in turn will breed together, half brother half sister , brother sister father daughter and mother son , although likening battle breeds to working terriers is a way to prove breeding , a terrier is expected to have a longer working life so courage alone can sometimes be there down fall.

i've had chats with a few who knew the Breay/buck bloodline, and All told me it was Mr Breay who practiced the line breeding Mr Buck was not so keen on it and once he was breeding on his own he was more likely to breed like to like and the line disappeared , i don't know this to be gospel only what i was told ?

Thanks, another good thread with very interesting information and opinions.

 

I don't know anything about those two men apart from what I have read, however I always wondered was Mr Buck the grafter and Mr Breay the one who put the thought into it?

 

Maybe that's why they produced such good terriers, they both brought something different, good team work,? We all have our strengths and weaknesses, but sure who knows at this stage, we can only speculate?