New football thread

[NEWKID 26,205]

12 hours ago, Blackmag said:

You rightly mention the back four why not give tomori at a.c. Milan a game he ticks a lot of boxes and is a regular or Braithwaite at Everton a bright young player who plays regular and is tipped for a big move we know what Maguire or stones walker ect bring to the pitch but I think Southgate has his favourites like Henderson or Maguire even though aren't playing or playing well will still get a place 

It's not the back 4 mate, we have great full backs, walker, Shaw, Chillwell, Alexander-Arnold etc... but our centre backs are prone a mistake hence my point on Rice being constant cover, although I'd say most teams play like this now as the full backs make up the attacking numbers and even come into midfield (look at Man City for instance). I just don't see it being ultra defensive personally, but I may be in a minority. 

Agreed on playing players who aren't playing for clubs, I'd say Maguire has never let England down and has been decent when fit for UTD this year, Stones has to play imo... but look at the 2 lads agaisnt Belgium, look great for their clubs but all over the shop for England, that partnership has to be right, they have to fit together, more than any position on the pitch centre backs have to be consistently played together to form a partnership, every move one makes the other has to counter, so I completely understand why he doesn't mess with that too much.. it's all opinions mate, we've shouted for years about England managers playing young players when they are ready, well now we have Mainoo, Bellingham, Saka, Foden all really young lads and almost certain starters... Rice is still young but acts like a 30 year old... He'll be England captain for a very long time.

[WILF 44,322]

I don’t pay much attention to England and certainly not if there’s some latest bit of “f**k you England” going on so I’m basing this post purely on what Gnasher wrote.

From what I have seen, Kane likes to play from a 10 position because he has never had the legs for off the shoulder and that’s just his style of forward play (one I happen to quiet like actually because it’s how I played) 

Kanes range of killer pass from that 10 position is, imho, unrivalled….he don’t have to look, he just knows where that ball needs to be. 
 

Somebody has to play 10 and if that means Kane because that’s how you get the best out of his game then that’s how it’s going to be……

Is Southgate letting Bellingham have free role when it’s there to have but sit when he needs to sit ?

You tell me lads, I don’t watch it 

[NEWKID 26,205]

12 minutes ago, gnasher16 said:

I never get too tactical as having never played the game properly i dont have a right to think i can out think an international coach but what i do understand is basic sporting mentality and competitive spirit so as an ex sportsman i just cant understand his decision making with the weapons he has at his disposal....to me Southgate lacks the qualities it takes to be a winner in sport.....he has a team there that any Premier League manager would dream of having,im convinced that if you gave this side to any of the top 10 Premier League managers they would win major tournaments.

An international manager has the luxury of seeing players excel in roles week to week and then fit them into his own formation he will have seen how Arteta allows Rice to get forward and how exceptional he is in that role yet continues to play him as a second holding midfielder....similar how he takes Bellingham out of a 10 role where he is showing to be one of the best in the world there.....2 holding midfielders when we have probably the best striker in our lifetimes.....2 holding midfielders has failed Southgate every time he's used it in tournament football and now in a friendly against a weak Brazilian side who sat 6th in South American qualification and havent won in their last 4 games,have a brand new manager etc he uses it again !....he is clearly not learning and will take us into the Euros the same way and we'll come up short again......he is crushing the attack of England and that is the sides strength he is a cowardly manager with a " dont get beat " attitude yet in reality he has won only 4 games out of 25 against top 15 ranked sides.

His mid game decision making in important games is poor,1 nil up after 2 minutes against an ageing Italian side in the Euros instead of going for the throat we sat back and just gave the game away,exactly the same against France in the World Cup....1 nil up against Croatia they adjusted and we didnt,ended up losing 2 - 1.

With a group of players who are more than capable of just going out and playing on the front foot and putting teams away he is ridiculously cautious....we have at least 5 world class players....Argentina won the World Cup with 1 world class player.

We talk about golden generations France had one,Brazil had one,Italy,Spain,Germany have all had them but now this is our golden generation we are wasting it with a manager who is not brave enough to set teams up to attack and play to our strengths,who lacks tactical knowledge or managerial ability....we have a potentially great team but have a Championship level manager playing Stoke football.......with his cv he should never have been given the job,and his yes man mentality will once again only go to show the priorities of our FA if they dont replace him........Rant over.

All really good points mate, and hard to disagree with, and you have as much right as anyone to talk tactics amongst shit kickers like us, you probably watch more football than most, loads of lads I've played with haven't a clue, they don't watch the game like that... 

I didn't see the Brazil game, but I didn't think the Belgium game was defensive, Bellingham and Mainoo rotated constantly and Belgium were chasing shadows in midfield, Rice is sacrificed for this agreed, plus as keep saying we play with very high full backs, Gomez and Chillwell were in the last 3rd more than the first 3rd most of the time. When I played (shit standard in comparison obviously) it was always 1 full back went the other stayed and covered, now both full backs go and the holding midfielder covers, Pep lets the Full back and the centre back go and make the numbers up in Midfield... Now Southgate has nowhere near the technical mind of Pep, and can't work with players every day to get the drills right every time, but I can see what he is trying to do.

Agreed completely on the Italy game, we had that game won in the first half if the players were let loose, these next 8 years if the star players stay injury free you are certainly looking at our golden generation, Braithwaite is looking very good at Everton and will probably move to a "big" club this summer, he looks to be the perfect modern centre back, if we get that right I can't really see a weakness.

This will be Southgates last tournament, I think he has done a lot to get people back behind the team, it feels profesional now, you don't have all the shit stories and scandals coming out of camps, he has put some discipline in place and codes of behaviour... the young lads come over really well in interviews etc

Who would you like to see take over from him?

A lot are saying Eddie Howe, would he leave the Newcastle project or is his time coming to an end anyway?

Be interesting to see who takes over.

[NEWKID 26,205]

5 minutes ago, WILF said:

I don’t pay much attention to England and certainly not if there’s some latest bit of “f**k you England” going on so I’m basing this post purely on what Gnasher wrote.

From what I have seen, Kane likes to play from a 10 position because he has never had the legs for off the shoulder and that’s just his style of forward play (one I happen to quiet like actually because it’s how I played) 

Kanes range of killer pass from that 10 position is, imho, unrivalled….he don’t have to look, he just knows where that ball needs to be. 
 

Somebody has to play 10 and if that means Kane because that’s how you get the best out of his game then that’s how it’s going to be……

Is Southgate letting Bellingham have free role when it’s there to have but sit when he needs to sit ?

You tell me lads, I don’t watch it 

Kane didn't play against Belgium mate, they played Ivan Toney who's touch and passing was very good, won and scored a penalty, to be honest it looked like he had been playing as a number 9 for England a lot longer than 2 games!

Agreed on Kane, his partnership with Son was brilliant, Kane come deep and Son run off him, he does similar for England with the likes of Saka and Rashford running off him but I think he plays a lot higher up the pitch.

Bellingham and Mainoo were outstanding the other night mate, they had absolutely freedom to go where they wanted, Rice played the number 6 role, and like Gnasher said was a bit more stifled, but he is the only one mature enough to sit and control that area, it is not an easy job, you have to be completely selfless and disciplined, which he is completely.. have I mentioned I think he's the bollocks! lol

I'm unsure you would want Kane coming too deep now, Bellingham, Mainoo, Maddison can all do all of that, Bellingham is world class mate, if he stays fit he'll be talked of among the best... Zidane esque... we've got a gem there.

Our starting 11 is as good as anyones, I completely get Gnash's point on Southgate as negative thoughts/dicsiplines feed into the playing style, we can really get out and at teams..

On another not, your lad Bowen had a very good game as well, I didn't realise he was that quick, caused them a lot of problems and didn't stop running, I don't think he'll be a starter but reckon he's on the plane and could play a role at some point

[WILF 44,322]

2 minutes ago, NEWKID said:

Kane didn't play against Belgium mate, they played Ivan Toney who's touch and passing was very good, won and scored a penalty, to be honest it looked like he had been playing as a number 9 for England a lot longer than 2 games!

I like that Toney, he has that swagger about him that just says he’ll nick a goal somewhere in a game.

2 minutes ago, NEWKID said:

Agreed on Kane, his partnership with Son was brilliant, Kane come deep and Son run off him, he does similar for England with the likes of Saka and Rashford running off him but I think he plays a lot higher up the pitch.

So that wouldn’t be Kanes natural game then which is going to stifle a little bit of what he can give do you think ?

Saka is still learning, every full back in the world must know by now he wants to fade right and then chop in on his left and shoulder to shoulder he has to set for someone else and move again because he is a Pygmy.

Outstanding when given that 2 yards of space however but still pretty predictable.

2 minutes ago, NEWKID said:

Bellingham and Mainoo were outstanding the other night mate, they had absolutely freedom to go where they wanted, Rice played the number 6 role, and like Gnasher said was a bit more stifled, but he is the only one mature enough to sit and control that area, it is not an easy job, you have to be completely selfless and disciplined, which he is completely.. have I mentioned I think he's the bollocks! lol

Rice had to play his whole time with us like that, hand cuffs on and just fighting fires so of course he is the very best man for the job.

2 minutes ago, NEWKID said:

I'm unsure you would want Kane coming too deep now, Bellingham, Mainoo, Maddison can all do all of that, Bellingham is world class mate, if he stays fit he'll be talked of among the best... Zidane esque... we've got a gem there.

Yeah, he is some player…..I suppose the decision is, do you build a team around him to cater for him or do you have to consider what everyone else can do ? 
Been said here “why sacrifice what Rice can do ?”, well if you let one of them do their magic someone has to be sacrificed to do the dirty work…..a bit like Ronaldos Brazil don’t work without a Dunga.

This whole generation has been coached as highly technical attack minded 4-3-3 players, so many of them are able do it but as you know on a pitch not everyone CAN do it……Foden thinks he has as much right as Bellingham to be at the sharp end, so does Saka, Trent, Stones, Rice, Kane, Mainoo, Grealish, Maddison……that’s the conundrum imho.

Everyone is frustrated if say Foden or Saka sit in deeper on an attack, but what if that attack breaks down ?….we will be getting 5,6,7 men into every attack and you can’t do more than that .

2 minutes ago, NEWKID said:

Our starting 11 is as good as anyones, I completely get Gnash's point on Southgate as negative thoughts/dicsiplines feed into the playing style, we can really get out and at teams..

I get it too because I’ve been saying it about my club team for nearly 3 years, I’m all for brave swashbuckling football but if you get that wrong for 2 games in a tournament you’re f****d….it’s not like a season of 38 games where you do have the space and the room to be brave. 
That’s a reality of tournament football.

2 minutes ago, NEWKID said:

On another not, your lad Bowen had a very good game as well, I didn't realise he was that quick, caused them a lot of problems and didn't stop running, I don't think he'll be a starter but reckon he's on the plane and could play a role at some point

He is a player mate, good old fashioned player in my opinion…..

[NEWKID 26,205]

20 minutes ago, WILF said:

I like that Toney, he has that swagger about him that just says he’ll nick a goal somewhere in a game.

So that wouldn’t be Kanes natural game then which is going to stifle a little bit of what he can give do you think ?

Saka is still learning, every full back in the world must know by now he wants to fade right and then chop in on his left and shoulder to shoulder he has to set for someone else and move again because he is a Pygmy.

Outstanding when given that 2 yards of space however but still pretty predictable.

Rice had to play his whole time with us like that, hand cuffs on and just fighting fires so of course he is the very best man for the job.

Yeah, he is some player…..I suppose the decision is, do you build a team around him to cater for him or do you have to consider what everyone else can do ? 
Been said here “why sacrifice what Rice can do ?”, well if you let one of them do their magic someone has to be sacrificed to do the dirty work…..a bit like Ronaldos Brazil don’t work without a Dunga.

This whole generation has been coached as highly technical attack minded 4-3-3 players, so many of them are able do it but as you know on a pitch not everyone CAN do it……Foden thinks he has as much right as Bellingham to be at the sharp end, so does Saka, Trent, Stones, Rice, Kane, Mainoo, Grealish, Maddison……that’s the conundrum imho.

Everyone is frustrated if say Foden or Saka sit in deeper on an attack, but what if that attack breaks down ?….we will be getting 5,6,7 men into every attack and you can’t do more than that .

I get it too because I’ve been saying it about my club team for nearly 3 years, I’m all for brave swashbuckling football but if you get that wrong for 2 games in a tournament you’re f****d….it’s not like a season of 38 games where you do have the space and the room to be brave. 
That’s a reality of tournament football.

He is a player mate, good old fashioned player in my opinion…..

Regards tournament football and swashbuckling football, that really is my point, I don't see how Southgate sets his teams up as negative, perhaps when he was using Rice and Phillips to sit, yes, but now he throws everyone forward apart from the 2 centre backs and Rice... like you say someone has to do that "donkey" role and Rice is the best for it, think Makele, DeChamps, Dunga etc all let the real flair players play, but Rice is possibly a better player than all of them so it's a win win in my book..,

I really like Toney mate, he tries stuff others don't has that real arrogance about him, is pretty much un fazed, if Southgate is only taking one other out and out centre forward it would be him for me over Watkins.

I guess with the Kane role, Bellingham will have to run off him if he comes deep, I think good players know when to go and where to go, it's very natural, they are both world class so I'd let them go, playing in the wider roles you can take your pick but through that centre spine it has to be Maguire, Stones, Rice, Bellingham and Kane, I know Mainoo is very young and inexperienced but I'd keep playing him now, he has the lot mate. He's smart, you watch his movement the other night and it was like him and Bellingham had been playing together for years.

Tournament football is about a bit of luck as well, I know we are always the nearly men, and that in itself speaks for itself (mentality, probably more than talent), but you can feel with this bunch your not being a prick of an England fan to really believe you are favourite to win a tournament now, Southgate may well not be the man, I don't think his selections are too bad as most would pick the same starting 11 (or near enough), and I don't think his tactics are that far out either, it could just be that defensive minded mentality dripping into the team,...dunno 

Another crying shame is Mason Greenwood, put all of the other shit to one side, he would be in this squad and a real threat, he's scoring and making goals every week in Spain playing for an average side, Barcelona are looking like signing him.. he's a natural finisher, which most aren't, can play either side or through the middle and is only 22 (I think), players like him give you an extra centre forward regards goals, but can be utilised else where, Kane/Toney/Watkins are straight through the middle types.   

[WILF 44,322]

Something struck me in these posts about that Italy game, so I looked up their starting 11 for that game…..how the f**k have we got the cheek to think we should just steam roller over that Italy team ?

Granted Italy are not the force they once was but f***ing hell, just trying to score goals against some of the classiest most experienced defenders in the world is going to require moments of magic.

You are talking about players who know every trick in the book from a footballing culture that taken pride on its defensive ability. 

And then you had Insigne and Imobili to deal with, you can’t just pay players like that no mind while your surge forward.

 

[NEWKID 26,205]

4 minutes ago, WILF said:

Something struck me in these posts about that Italy game, so I looked up their starting 11 for that game…..how the f**k have we got the cheek to think we should just steam roller over that Italy team ?

Granted Italy are not the force they once was but f***ing hell, just trying to score goals against some of the classiest most experienced defenders in the world is going to require moments of magic.

You are talking about players who know every trick in the book from a footballing culture that taken pride on its defensive ability. 

And then you had Insigne and Imobili to deal with, you can’t just pay players like that no mind while your surge forward.

 

In the first 10 minutes we got at them mate, scored early and then really started to sit back, I agree with Gnash on this one that the line should have stayed high and kept that up for the first 60 minutes at least, forget who was playing for a minute, you know as well as me that sometimes its clicking and you can really hurt a team in that spell, you sense it.. It felt like the lads didn't sense that and resorted to defending a lead,  Chellini should definitely have had a red for dragging back Saka, but thats the margins in a final and it don't matter what we say Italy were smarter, more experienced, rode the early onslaught and won it... You'd hope those experiences are valuable next time these lads are in that position.

 

[THE STIFFMEISTER 14,558]

Once Southgate gets away , that next manager will have greenwood back in the mix as a starter 

[THE STIFFMEISTER 14,558]

55 minutes ago, WILF said:

Something struck me in these posts about that Italy game, so I looked up their starting 11 for that game…..how the f**k have we got the cheek to think we should just steam roller over that Italy team ?

Granted Italy are not the force they once was but f***ing hell, just trying to score goals against some of the classiest most experienced defenders in the world is going to require moments of magic.

You are talking about players who know every trick in the book from a footballing culture that taken pride on its defensive ability. 

And then you had Insigne and Imobili to deal with, you can’t just pay players like that no mind while your surge forward.

 

No agreed 

but as you yourself know , what’s worse than sitting in a dressing room  and some lunch “, see Pirelli’ have got Dicko back today from suspension , scored a few goals him this year ya know ? “ 

you can’t worry about others game , just your own. 
 

In the words of the great Eden hazard “ just give me the ball and I’ll score two goals and we’ll win” 

[big sid 1,119]

8 minutes ago, THE STIFFMEISTER said:

Once Southgate gets away , that next manager will have greenwood back in the mix as a starter 

but will the fans and sponcers

[THE STIFFMEISTER 14,558]

3 minutes ago, big sid said:

but will the fans and sponcers

That will disappear like ice on a fire if he goes to juventus and wins a scuddetto in the next couple of seasons . 

man united would not be in the situation they are in if they had the balls to stand by a player that had made a daft mistake 

 

[big sid 1,119]

5 minutes ago, THE STIFFMEISTER said:

That will disappear like ice on a fire if he goes to juventus and wins a scuddetto in the next couple of seasons . 

man united would not be in the situation they are in if they had the balls to stand by a player that had made a daft mistake 

 

your probably correct but if and its a big IF what he was accused of is right its hardly a daft mistake.

[THE STIFFMEISTER 14,558]

6 minutes ago, big sid said:

your probably correct but if and its a big IF what he was accused of is right its hardly a daft mistake.

Was he charged ??? 

[big sid 1,119]

21 minutes ago, THE STIFFMEISTER said:

Was he charged ??? 

yes he was charged with attempted rape , controlling behaviour, and assault,