.17 HMR Fox- heart or heart shot? Plus ammo.

[Billy_boy_2010 8]

Hi guys 

I have lots of experiencs shooting bunnies and squirrels etc plus shotgun but it's my first time on fox. 

FEO has granted my 17 HMR for fox- saying 22 wasn't sufficient. 

A local farmer wants me to take care of the foxes before lambing season. So- my question is- which causes the most ethical kill with HMR ? 

1) Heart/lung  (more forgiving......unless I hit a bone and the little round struggles ? May not be that quick? Assume heart is missed- would a lung shot do the job quickly?) Expanding will be quicker in lung but more likely to struggle with the shoulder joint? 

2) Head (potentially instant and I assume the fast round won't bounce off the fox angled skull like a 22 occasionally can?) But a smaller target. Harder bullet potentially better here but such a tiny tiny entrance hole who knows what direction the bullet would take ?! 

And do you use the ballistic tip for full metal non expanding ?  I wonder whether the expanding tip will be forgiving of a less than optimal shot- or will it potentially expand immediately before it penetrates sufficiently? 

For the sake of argument let's keep the range sensible at 75 yards. I would hope to be well inside this most of the time. 

Medium term I want a deer calibre which I would feel an awful lot happier with for foxes- but as this may take a few months I will make a start with the HMR. 

Any advice would be great thanks guys. 

[Sausagedog 7,381]

My advice is don't go for the head, put one across the ribs and it'll go down.

Your Bobby hasn't seen my photos I guess re the 22!

Never had a 22 bounce of a fox's head or heard of it, that's a new one on me but then again I have only been doing it for thirty years.

[Billy_boy_2010 8]

Thanks for the advice sausage.

From what i have read FEO opinion on rimfire for fox varies significantly nationwide. Mine (who doesn't actually shoot) point blank declines 22 for fox but was happy with HMR.

The 22 bouncing off a foxes skill was the experience of a chap i met years ago. it wasn't common- but seemed to be something to do with the foxes head position and skull/forehead shape- very angular and inviting a ricochet. 

 

Any thoughts on the bullet type for heart/lung shots Sausage ? How quick is the kill with a HMR and a rib shot ? 

Edited January 11, 2020 by Billy_boy_2010

[Rabid 1,936]

If I had a quid for every headshot Fox I’ve seen with a .22 that dropped on the spot, I’ve never heard of a ricochet off the skull, but I’ve seen many with a hole straight in.

.17 is plenty man enough at sensible distances, will you be lamping, thermal, nv ?

I would say anywhere in the chest, bib or head will drop them, you’ve got to be confident in the gun and the round, and able to hit them.

[David.evans 5,323]

Good advice from both the above 

keep the range sensible 100/125 max , I would go chest my self with that small round , and hit the paper a good few times till you get to know your rifle 

good luck  

[Sausagedog 7,381]

The angle of the forehead is shallow yes but ideally the soft lead bullet deforms just enough the bust the skull. 40gn beats 17gn always in my book, not saying it's no good but bullet weight on target gets my vote.

The 17 across the ribs is going to take the wind out of it quick, quicker than most 22 shots. Most 22 shots cause some lung collapse yes but usually the subsequent flooding has to take effect. They are just as dead though!

The main reason I advise against head shots is if you end up with just a busted jaw. 

The 17 is such a light bullet and fragile. The dense flesh around the scull can cause shallow wounds. I have seen this!

 

[Stavross 13,801]

I’ve shot a fair few foxes with the .17 and my advice would be keep it under 100 yards and head shoot them with ballistic tip, ( I’ve never had one run when head shot ) if they are square on I would take a bib shot, I’ve shot them side on but there’s a big margin for error and with it been such a small round there’s always a chance it will be running dead, this is only my opinion and as the wife tells me my opinion means nothing

[BenBhoy 4,706]

30 minutes ago, Stavross said:

as the wife tells me my opinion means nothing

Think I must have married her sister!

[Billy_boy_2010 8]

Interesting thanks a lot guys 

I'm looking into night vision now as it happens. probably a PARD. 

It seems there's a bit of variation amongst users- some say heart and lung with 17 and others say head shot. 

I will do some more practice with the 17 for sure before I go near anything alive. 

With the ballistic tip it seems some people think a splintered round causing superficial skull damage is a risk. But there's a similar risk with a heart and lung shot too. 

I'm going to do some research on fox anatomy- need to know exactly where the heart is from all angles. 

Any more advice would be excellent thanks guys. I know everyone hates foxes- but to me they are cousins of our best friends- dogs- so deserve a near instant death. 

[Stavross 13,801]

Nobody wants to hurt anything, the more you know the more you will make the correct decision, you must have complete respect for what you shoot, foxes are an amazing animal, unbelievably intelligent this is show by how many there is and how they constantly out smart me

[Billy_boy_2010 8]

Part of me wants to hurry the 308 deer rifle and wait to use that on the foxes. Shot placement is key but the reassurance and overkill of a larger calibre reassures me.

That or I try and trade my HMR with a 223 and have a dedicated fox rifle.

[Sausagedog 7,381]

I used a 308 on fox for years and 30/30.

110 GRN vmax on top of a full case of h4895 and you can just center them from any angle.

It's not overkill, overkill don't really exist bro.

Re the chest shot, the only bone there is rib and they are light. Your tiny pill will ruin the lungs and get heavy bleeders.

I think that with many folk, especially in the UK a bang flop is the ultimate goal.

That's fine but not guaranteed by any calibre. Deer stalkers expect the beast to go on a death run when shot across the chest but on small game it seems to be frowned on! It is quite normal for a dead animal that does quite know what just happened to him to run some. This is why good follow up skills are a must.

In fact I would go as far as to say that for some the perceived unacceptable occasion a critter goes on a death run has lead them to risk wounding an animals jaw, of which I have seen happen, even after prior encouraging no head shots!

I love Stavros but he said there is more margin for error with a chest shot. Personally, my worthless opinion is that there is more room for error with a head shot. I however respect his opinion and field craft to acknowledge his experienced authority on the subject.

How was that for creeping?

 

SD.

[BenBhoy 4,706]

2 hours ago, Billy_boy_2010 said:

Part of me wants to hurry the 308 deer rifle and wait to use that on the foxes. Shot placement is key but the reassurance and overkill of a larger calibre reassures me.

That or I try and trade my HMR with a 223 and have a dedicated fox rifle.

Depends what your land is cleared for too mate, assuming you dont have open ticket yet.

I'm in very similar position as yourself. Just bought my first rifle last week ( tbolt HMR) and getting pard008 in coming weeks.

[Billy_boy_2010 8]

13 minutes ago, BenBhoy said:

Depends what your land is cleared for too mate, assuming you dont have open ticket yet.

I'm in very similar position as yourself. Just bought my first rifle last week ( tbolt HMR) and getting pard008 in coming weeks.

It's cleared for full bore [BANNED TEXT]

[Stavross 13,801]

I would always take sausagedog’s advice over mine, he is vastly more experienced than me ( older ), what I will say is if I was shooting expanding I would always take a body shot if I could, with small fast calibres especially the hmr shooting ballistic I always try to take a head shot, as always shot placement is key, I wouldn’t take a head shot face on with the hmr, 

on the centre fire topic, I fully agree with sausage that there’s no overkill with fox, I’d use 50 cal if they would let me, I have mates that use .308 and 30-06 both these can be expensive to feed if you don’t home load, I always champion the.243 as a good all rounder but others have different options, there’s no right or wrong every Calibre has its place ( apart from .223 but we won’t go into why most fox shooters seem to like it apart from me )