A Razors Edge

[foxdropper 17,092]

Eloquently put mate and sounds honest enough to me .

[neil cooney 10,415]

Is the reason you're not into black terriers because the lads you wanted to buy pups off last year wouldn't sell them to you ?

[longnancys 49]

Middle aged man pretending to be 89 ... PMSL

[foxdropper 17,092]

Is the reason you're not into black terriers because the lads you wanted to buy pups off last year wouldn't sell them to you ?

Have those tight shorts made you a bit argumentative mate ,doesn't suit you .

[Lenmcharristar 9,184]

FIGHT, FIGHT, FIGHT, FIGHT. Hunting life celebrity death match,

In the red corner we have Neil ' old man' cooney,

In the blue corner we have stop end ' the incompetent'

Let's just get it oooonnn

Ding Ding

[neil cooney 10,415]

Neil do you still have the tea towel, I for one would like to see a pic if its in one piece, I will pass on the hotpants.

The tea towel has never seen a cup or a plate as it's on the back of the kitchen door. Sorry, but I've no way of putting pics up. My daughter can do it but it's a big song and dance to get her to do it, LOL.

 

I might put the hot pants on e-bay, they'll be sold in no time, LOL.

[neil cooney 10,415]

 

Is the reason you're not into black terriers because the lads you wanted to buy pups off last year wouldn't sell them to you ?

Have those tight shorts made you a bit argumentative mate ,doesn't suit you .

 

It's a combination of the tight Daisy Dukes, old age and the fact I don't suffer fools, LOL.

[Corkman 944]

 

Is the reason you're not into black terriers because the lads you wanted to buy pups off last year wouldn't sell them to you ?

Have those tight shorts made you a bit argumentative mate ,doesn't suit you .

 

 

Stop end. You are more than welcome to any pup or breeding that I have access too now and in the future! Should you want it.

 

All that we ask down this way is to rear them right, work them right and don't "ever" sell them . All of which you fully understand!

 

As like anyone else I move in various circles......some of these circles remain the same, some overlap and some change over the years, but one thing is constant - the working white dogs.

 

Of course the Cork standards may not be up to the dizzy heights of others, but they do plenty of us just fine down this way and some up your way too!

 

So I wouldn't be too bothered about buying black dogs.

 

I would think that many a man has bought or tried to buy a dog. No shame in that. One of the best I ever had I bought for £50 old Irish pounds and it was the best money I ever spent. But unfortunately there is plenty of sh*te out there too with a hefty price tag on them? Some beggars belief.

 

AND You are correct. The so called Patterdale Terrier (Black smooth coated bully head - Nuttal Type) has not that long a history. Nothing wrong with that! Many of them work and work well. Everyone including Nuttal got his dogs from someone else and made them their own as are many of the men today. Of course all Fell type dogs can be traced back to the Lake District and probably the Wolf. The past is nice to know, but the hear and now in my lifetime is what I am only interested in as these are the dogs "we" all work today and strive at a minimum to keep up to the standards of our predecessors.

 

So Happy Christmas to all and Happy Hunting

Edited December 22, 2016 by Corkman

[pablo esc 1,598]

 

 

 

Is the reason you're not into black terriers because the lads you wanted to buy pups off last year wouldn't sell them to you ?

Have those tight shorts made you a bit argumentative mate ,doesn't suit you .

Stop end. You are more than welcome to any pup or breeding that I have access too now and in the future! Should you want it.

 

All that we ask down this way is to rear them right, work them right and don't "ever" sell them . All of which you fully understand!

 

As like anyone else I move in various circles......some of these circles remain the same, some overlap and some change over the years, but one thing is constant - the working white dogs.

 

Of course the Cork standards may not be up to the dizzy heights of others, but they do plenty of us just fine down this way and some up your way too!

 

So I wouldn't be too bothered about buying black dogs.

 

I would think that many a man has bought or tried to buy a dog. No shame in that. One of the best I ever had I bought for £50 old Irish pounds and it was the best money I ever spent. But unfortunately there is plenty of sh*te out there too with a hefty price tag on them? Some beggars belief.

 

AND You are correct. The so called Patterdale Terrier (Black smooth coated bully head - Nuttal Type) has not that long a history. Nothing wrong with that! Many of them work and work well. Everyone including Nuttal got his dogs from someone else and made them their own as are many of the men today. Of course all Fell type dogs can be traced back to the Lake District and probably the Wolf. The past is nice to know, but the hear and now in my lifetime is what I am only interested in as these are the dogs "we" all work today and strive at a minimum to keep up to the standards of our predecessors.

 

So Happy Christmas to all and Happy Hunting

nuttals in his eightees .he got his off his father in law from going out with him from a child .he bred the own and took a mating off buck breay .they been dead nearly forty years .so wouldn't say the was modern man and dog . what's in your white dogs

[neil cooney 10,415]

 

 

Is the reason you're not into black terriers because the lads you wanted to buy pups off last year wouldn't sell them to you ?

Have those tight shorts made you a bit argumentative mate ,doesn't suit you .

 

 

Stop end. You are more than welcome to any pup or breeding that I have access too now and in the future! Should you want it.

 

All that we ask down this way is to rear them right, work them right and don't "ever" sell them . All of which you fully understand!

 

As like anyone else I move in various circles......some of these circles remain the same, some overlap and some change over the years, but one thing is constant - the working white dogs.

 

Of course the Cork standards may not be up to the dizzy heights of others, but they do plenty of us just fine down this way and some up your way too!

 

So I wouldn't be too bothered about buying black dogs.

 

I would think that many a man has bought or tried to buy a dog. No shame in that. One of the best I ever had I bought for £50 old Irish pounds and it was the best money I ever spent. But unfortunately there is plenty of sh*te out there too with a hefty price tag on them? Some beggars belief.

 

AND You are correct. The so called Patterdale Terrier (Black smooth coated bully head - Nuttal Type) has not that long a history. Nothing wrong with that! Many of them work and work well. Everyone including Nuttal got his dogs from someone else and made them their own as are many of the men today. Of course all Fell type dogs can be traced back to the Lake District and probably the Wolf. The past is nice to know, but the hear and now in my lifetime is what I am only interested in as these are the dogs "we" all work today and strive at a minimum to keep up to the standards of our predecessors.

 

So Happy Christmas to all and Happy Hunting

 

In your experience Corkman, would Stopend have a better chance of getting a worker out of the white terriers you'd provide him with (Why are they called Cork dogs?) than a black one off of the lads he was asking last year for pups off ?

Also, another question, which would be an older type ? The Cork white terriers or the so called Patterdale ?

[p3d 879]

 

 

 

Is the reason you're not into black terriers because the lads you wanted to buy pups off last year wouldn't sell them to you ?

Have those tight shorts made you a bit argumentative mate ,doesn't suit you .

Stop end. You are more than welcome to any pup or breeding that I have access too now and in the future! Should you want it.

 

All that we ask down this way is to rear them right, work them right and don't "ever" sell them . All of which you fully understand!

 

As like anyone else I move in various circles......some of these circles remain the same, some overlap and some change over the years, but one thing is constant - the working white dogs.

 

Of course the Cork standards may not be up to the dizzy heights of others, but they do plenty of us just fine down this way and some up your way too!

 

So I wouldn't be too bothered about buying black dogs.

 

I would think that many a man has bought or tried to buy a dog. No shame in that. One of the best I ever had I bought for £50 old Irish pounds and it was the best money I ever spent. But unfortunately there is plenty of sh*te out there too with a hefty price tag on them? Some beggars belief.

 

AND You are correct. The so called Patterdale Terrier (Black smooth coated bully head - Nuttal Type) has not that long a history. Nothing wrong with that! Many of them work and work well. Everyone including Nuttal got his dogs from someone else and made them their own as are many of the men today. Of course all Fell type dogs can be traced back to the Lake District and probably the Wolf. The past is nice to know, but the hear and now in my lifetime is what I am only interested in as these are the dogs "we" all work today and strive at a minimum to keep up to the standards of our predecessors.

 

So Happy Christmas to all and Happy Hunting

nuttals in his eightees .he got his off his father in law from going out with him from a child .he bred the own and took a mating off buck breay .they been dead nearly forty years .so wouldn't say the was modern man and dog . what's in your white dogs

 

Pablo,

 

Here are photographs of Mr Nuttall with his dogs during his life, as you say over the last years.

 

Brian with his son Craig - Brian looks to be in his thirties in this photo.

The dogs look to be tan or red coloured, nearly smooth coated terriers

 

Brian with his terriers, Brian looks to be in his late forty's / fifty maybe. Terriers are black fell types, rough coated?.

 

Brian with his Black smooth terriers (Patterdales??) Brian in his seventies.

 

That is some change of terrier type in 40 years, The kennel club would get away with classing these three types as separate breeds!!

 

Here are Breays terriers in 1966

 

Close enough to what Brian had in his thirties in the photo above, around 1966 if he is in his 80's now.

 

This is John Park as a young man ( guessing he is in his thirties, again around 1966 if Mr Park is in his 80's as well)

 

 

These terriers seem the same type, nearly smooth coated (slape coated) red / brown in colour.

 

Photographs don't lie and it is easy to work back through the last years to see the development of the smooth black dogs.

 

What is missing is the introduction of the smooth black coat, who knows what was introduced to get that??

 

 

[p3d 879]

Here is an image of one of Mr Nuttal's Patterdale terriers "Judy" from 1975.

 

 

This is her pedigree.

 

 

Its just clear enough to make out Breays dogs, a few Borders, and .......

 

Save the image and zoom in on your computer. Maybe some of the lads who work black dogs can add other pedigrees from that era and shed light on the breeding of these great little dogs.

[p3d 879]

A lot of talk disagreement about game,hard or baying terriers which is only normal.But what about origin keeping faith with the style a lot of lines strains or even breeds were bred to work in,magority of lads would expect a Russel to be a Bayer some pushier than others but is an out and out baying patterdale,lakeland or even border terrier a good example of its breed? .The law has changed life in general is very different but do we lay down hundreds of years of tradition to please the law ?.Do we reject the men that put so much time and effort into producing those breeds of game hard terriers .

 

Downview,

 

Not sure if there is a working origin of a hard terrier, if hard terrier means it has to be laid up for a couple of weeks after being dug.

The definition of "hard" is used differently by everyone. Some people call it "Stupid" "Silent" "Crocodile"

But in general for me it means a terrier that closes with the quarry and engages regardless of the outcome to itself.

 

Before the arrival of the locator collar, a hard terrier would have a very short career.

 

If we use the name Russell because we credit the Reverend Russell with a standard of working terriers that HE wanted for hunting with foxhound packs, then a bayer should not prevent the Fox from running once dug. Also IMO any professional hunt terrierman wants a terrier that he can use 3 times during the week and twice on Sunday. A "hard' terrier must be useless to this man.

 

But there have been some very hard Russell type terriers.

 

Its a bit of a delusion that the terriers of the Lake District were all Hard.

It is well documented that multiple terriers (4 / 5 at times) were used by Bowman and Wear to worry the fox underground.

Again to be fair to these men, this was their job, they were not Sunday sportsmen, they were out to account for the Fox.

A lot of places they could not dig out the Fox.

 

Never really understood how they did not loose terriers in fights underground or the advantage of the 3rd 4th or 5th terrier.

If the first 2 terriers are up to the Fox, then the others must be behind them, not a good position for a fiery terrier!!

[Apache... 2,585]

Thats the Christmas spirit, good on you Corkman...

[jiggy 3,207]

With black been a dominant gene or colour even when out crossing to red or white at the time you would think their would be a lot more of evidence in photos of black dogs before the 60,s. It seems to be the era when they were getting established although I'm sure there was a few knocking about before this, they only seemed to get popular from buck/breay and then nuttal onwards. Nobody can say for sure and I'd only believe parts of what's in books because you never tend to see men making themselves or dogs out to be anything only the best but the hard black dog or any hard breed for that matter only started to dominate with the invention of locaters. I wish some honest man back in the day wrote a book about jackers and how to avoid them because at the end of the day this was and still is the most popular type.?