Lusitano 294 Posted August 15, 2015 Report Share Posted August 15, 2015 A bulldog was a function and not a type!!! It could have been any size or type as long as it did the job it was a bulldog... terriers have bull blood and bull breeds have terrier blood and this is nothing new in my opinion! there was also talk of racing dog blood added to the mix! The change in the dogs was due to the shift in sports, it's happened numerous times over the years that new breeds were created from older breeds for a new function as the original breed was no longer required. Also it's important to remember that the pit dogs sent to America would have been crossed to what ever was there left from the spanish, Portuguese and Italians from centuries before. The pit bull is nothing more than a mongrel and this shows in the so many different types that we have today! The larger dogs were used around the farm whilst the smaller types were used in the pit! With regards to the early white Bulldogs known as the old southern whites or white english Bulldogs these dogs in my opinion were nothing more than large pits bred to be all white as southerners believed that a white dog was a smarter dog... 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
neil cooney 10,415 Posted August 15, 2015 Report Share Posted August 15, 2015 (edited) Lusitano, some of what you say is true but to call the APBT a mongeral shows lack of knowledge of the breed. Just because they're not all like peas in a pod doesn't mean they're not a breed. If someone wants to be silly enough and go back to the dawn of time then why not say they have wolf blood in them, as do poodles for that matter. What happened in the breeding of a breed centuries ago is immaterial ,what's more important is the last 30 years and who had them. As I said before the first breed of dog to be recognised by the UKC was the APBT. Edited August 15, 2015 by neil cooney Quote Link to post Share on other sites
neil cooney 10,415 Posted August 15, 2015 Report Share Posted August 15, 2015 ive the opinion that terrier blood is certainly in the makeup of the APBT. black n tans show up in them and staffords. And where did the black and tan come from in some terrier breeds. So do you think Rottweilers and Kerry Beagles are terrier crosses ? do you think the apbt are rottweiler x ? Not for one second nor do I think there's terrier in them. Why do you think Terrier was added to the end of the name if not because terrier blood was used? If the German word for terrier is Pincer then how did the Doberman Pincer get it's name ? Why is the Airedale classed as a terrier if it never went to ground ? It's just one of those things that the APB got the T stuck on at the end. It's the main reason that most, if not all, the old timers in the states just called them bulldogs. They hated the name terrier being on their pride and joys and most of them agree that there's no terrier in the mix. Like I said before, who in there right mind would introduce cur blood into the breed, it would be taking a big step backwards. That's me finished on the subject as it looks like I have an interest in using the APBT, but I don't. I just love them. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
DogFox123 1,379 Posted August 15, 2015 Author Report Share Posted August 15, 2015 http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=273896 This dog is a proper Bulldog throwback. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Lusitano 294 Posted August 15, 2015 Report Share Posted August 15, 2015 Neil Cooney ive plenty of knowledge on the breed and have owned several examples over the years... By Me calling the pit bull a mongrel I am merely pointing out the fact that several breeds went into the mix and this shows in the different types we have today. Like the bulldog of old I would say that the pit bull is more a function than a breed. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
oneredtrim 148 Posted August 15, 2015 Report Share Posted August 15, 2015 (edited) Here's a few more of my mutterings on the subject... First off, i dont believe the terriers used nearly 200 years ago had temperements anything like the earthdogs of today and like i said before, how much terrier was used, i'd doubt much at all... A generation, two? Enough to bring size (bulk) down and and add speed. My line bred bull lurchers are 25 years from greyhound blood and apart from speed (and shitting!) they dont show any greyhoundy traits. Lovin the Nuttall romance of the northern mini pit dogs and grandfathers etc, because i've known Brian for over 30 years and to different 'audiences' he'll say the blood is or is absolutley not in the make up of his dogs. You gotta love the romance of it all though... But if it sells eh....! Not sure if that ^ is aimed at me Bos, perhaps i never articulated meself too well earlier but i never for a moment wrote his forefathers (or meant to imply) pit dog mob went into his own line...only that it travelled down to wigan to seek out a specific terrier type fancied by known wiganers....the offsprogs went on to be first registered in Staffordshire, otherwise they'd have been called Wigan bull terriers. Next time you see him ask him if this is bullshit. No, not aimed at you mate. Just saying that I've heard both versions of the history, with one of the 'not's' at the old Wigan club meeting 30 years ago... If them Wigan butchers existed, i recon that would have been the opportunity to air it and get direct feedback and confirmation etc but it was totally the reverse... Funny eh! 30 yrs ago would still have been wide of his grandfathers mark....with a line having to breed true to type the margins widen further. Nuttal was'nt after selling me anything, he did'nt know me from adam when i knocked on his door, he offered me a pup freemans before i left, i was straight with him and told him they did'nt please me eye. No mate, 30+ years ago 'I' was sat in the Dog & Partridge Pub, Pemberton, Wigan. Listening to denial, when questioned, about bull blood... Anyways, back to subject... IMO terrier blood is absolutly part of the APBT's history, like it or not, in small ammounts, way way back and that's why it's in the name... Prove it otherwise..! II've no idea what or how the question regarding bull blood was structured in the pub that day Bos...i once followed a 5 page thread regarding some bull infusion into his line and when i was chatting to him discovered he'd used an injection of Oakes's line...oakes was of the same opinion, though reading the said thread a reader might have been tempted to wager bull. Also read other multi-pagers regarding his dogs not working anymore backed by people who have known him for 12 centuries, the hunt kennels were dropping a parcel of his dog off after a three dayer whilst i was stood on his yard , i've no allegiance to him whatsoever but from what i seen and how he dealt with meeting me i'd be very suprised if he was chatting shit Edited August 15, 2015 by oneredtrim Quote Link to post Share on other sites
oneredtrim 148 Posted August 15, 2015 Report Share Posted August 15, 2015 (edited) ive the opinion that terrier blood is certainly in the makeup of the APBT. black n tans show up in them and staffords. And where did the black and tan come from in some terrier breeds. So do you think Rottweilers and Kerry Beagles are terrier crosses ? do you think the apbt are rottweiler x ? Not for one second nor do I think there's terrier in them. Why do you think Terrier was added to the end of the name if not because terrier blood was used? Why is the Airedale classed as a terrier if it never went to ground ? To be fair looking at em you'd put heavy dough on a sneaky terrier leg over. Edited August 15, 2015 by oneredtrim 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
DogFox123 1,379 Posted August 15, 2015 Author Report Share Posted August 15, 2015 (edited) Neil Cooney ive plenty of knowledge on the breed and have owned several examples over the years... By Me calling the pit bull a mongrel I am merely pointing out the fact that several breeds went into the mix and this shows in the different types we have today. Like the bulldog of old I would say that the pit bull is more a function than a breed. Several breeds? Not being funny but that is just your opinion, I'd like a bit of evidence to prove your claim? I wouldn't say the Americans added other breeds into the mix tbh, they just had more variation of the Bull and Terrier type dogs. Edited August 15, 2015 by DogFox123 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
WILF 44,322 Posted August 15, 2015 Report Share Posted August 15, 2015 ive the opinion that terrier blood is certainly in the makeup of the APBT. black n tans show up in them and staffords. And where did the black and tan come from in some terrier breeds.So do you think Rottweilers and Kerry Beagles are terrier crosses ? do you think the apbt are rottweiler x ? Not for one second nor do I think there's terrier in them. Why do you think Terrier was added to the end of the name if not because terrier blood was used? If the German word for terrier is Pincer then how did the Doberman Pincer get it's name ?Why is the Airedale classed as a terrier if it never went to ground ? It's just one of those things that the APB got the T stuck on at the end. It's the main reason that most, if not all, the old timers in the states just called them bulldogs. They hated the name terrier being on their pride and joys and most of them agree that there's no terrier in the mix. Like I said before, who in there right mind would introduce cur blood into the breed, it would be taking a big step backwards. That's me finished on the subject as it looks like I have an interest in using the APBT, but I don't. I just love them. Not much to do with this thread mate, so I won't dwell, but the Dobermen is only around 150 years old. The dog catcher Doberman bred together a load of different stuff out of his pound in order to create a real nasty example of a hound......he had a little too much success and they were almost unmanageable and so they had to breed out a lot of the pure nastiness in order to get a more manageable and nicer animal. They do breed true to type but make no mistake they are a mongrel of the highest order. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
DogFox123 1,379 Posted August 15, 2015 Author Report Share Posted August 15, 2015 Don't forget Colby's most famous APBT was called Pincher ;-) Quote Link to post Share on other sites
AKA-BRINDLE 879 Posted August 15, 2015 Report Share Posted August 15, 2015 (edited) ive the opinion that terrier blood is certainly in the makeup of the APBT. black n tans show up in them and staffords. And where did the black and tan come from in some terrier breeds. If the German word for terrier is Pincer then how did the Doberman Pincer get it's name ? Why is the Airedale classed as a terrier if it never went to ground ? It's just one of those things that the APB got the T stuck on at the end. It's the main reason that most, if not all, the old timers in the states just called them bulldogs. They hated the name terrier being on their pride and joys and most of them agree that there's no terrier in the mix. Like I said before, who in there right mind would introduce cur blood into the breed, it would be taking a big step backwards. That's me finished on the subject as it looks like I have an interest in using the APBT, but I don't. I just love them. All them oldtimers in the states hated the word Terrier being used soo much...that Colby and others sold pitdogs as StaffordshireTerriers and before that Yankee terriers...with no Bull in the title whatsoever!...so much of what you post is wrong mate...maybe thats why you seemed to of quit on the thread and jumped the wall Edited August 15, 2015 by AKA-BRINDLE Quote Link to post Share on other sites
YOKEL 2,122 Posted August 15, 2015 Report Share Posted August 15, 2015 Don't see any apbt with broken coats or was it just smooth coated terriers that were used in the mix? IF terrier was added, we're talking about the old "bull and terrier" crosses of centuries ago, and there are more than a few old prints of these crosses showing heavy coat. the A.P.B.T's of today are quite away away from their ancestors....tho didn't the gr ch shelly/badger mating produce hairy pups??? Yokel 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
YOKEL 2,122 Posted August 15, 2015 Report Share Posted August 15, 2015 were did the red nose bulls come into it,are these a hybrid type, always had it as coming from the dudley nosed TERRIER...a localised strain from the midlands. term still gets used today among show folk for fleshy coloured noses... Yokel 3 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
YOKEL 2,122 Posted August 15, 2015 Report Share Posted August 15, 2015 Wether we like to hear it or not the Yanks definitely perfected the breed IMO. when would you say they perfected the breed mate? when they continued to keep and breed large yards for the sole purpose of sport, breeding from the best individuals at the game. whilst our fanciers dwindled in numbers and chased kc recognition at let the breed go to the show bench...if them yanks didn't improve on the base stock that hit their shores, why did we fall over ourselves to bring them over in the 70's and 80's??? Yokel 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
YOKEL 2,122 Posted August 15, 2015 Report Share Posted August 15, 2015 getting back to the original question, is there terrier blood in the A.P.B.T? i think we all accept that the A.P.B.T. was born out of dogs that left our shores a few centuries back. The dogs that left our shores were born out of the old "bull and TERRIER" crosses. so by that rational, yes there is terrier blood in the A.P.B.T. how much we'll never know, i.m.o. just enough... Yokel 8 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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