A Bit Of Enrichment For The Mp's To Enjoy

[Truther 1,579]

 

 

 

yes but some schools are only that in name

 

Absolutely, but is that not a good argument to reform state education? Rather than enforce a mandatory fully socialist system?

 

To reform state education to ensure all state educated children are given the same education is to raise the masses to approach the standard of the elite.

 

To enforce a fully socialist education system (ban private and make state the only option) is to drag the elite down to the level of the masses.

 

Besides, I don't believe that our current state system is as bad as all that anyway. Though improvements can always be made and should always be strived for. Too many kids aren't taking advantage of what's on offer, they'd rather be stoned out their face than revise for their exams. That doesn't make the kids that do strive for more 'fortunate', it makes them smart.

 

As I've said before, there are social issues/environments that almost destine kids for a bad life. They aren't raised to make good choices and so the cycle is self perpetuating. Maybe then this socialist ideal should evolve to the state raising all children too, so they get the right and fair upbringing?

 

I hate the idea personally. Life is unfair, not everyone is born equal, that's nature, as much as we as humans try to separate from it.

 

 

I think originally people were born equal, under mother nature, people aren't born equal in society now that's true, but that's down to human nature, not mother nature surely. Like it or not humans are hard wired to be socialist, cooperative, we wouldn't have made it this far if not. The will to live/thrive obviously played its part in our development to this stage, but combined with over population its now likely to be our downfall.

 

Truther how can this be correct if humans Evolved? Of course we are all born different, even as cave men.

Some will have been better hunters than others and they might have lived when others died.

Some might have been more savvy at keeping warm than others, they will survive when others died.

 

It's nature. There's strong and weak in all species, ourselves included. And all survive fine when the goings good. However, in times of temperature fluctuation/ food shortage/etc then only the best of the species will survive. In Homo Sapien it is obvious that the smartest ones will prosper....the rest will just tread water.....

 

 

Funnily enough i added a bit on to the last post to BH that covered this, but decided to delete. It's a fair point granted, but originally cooperation was the name of the game, like it being hard wired into us not to kill a fellow human under normal circumstances. Early man would have to cooperate to survive, everyone would have their place, and in a small group everyone would play a valuable role and be needed by the tribe as a whole, some people still live like this today. You'd always have leaders, more likely looked at as elders wiser than the younger ones, but in small groups people would be more or less equal imo? The trouble starts with bigger numbers and individuals who go against natural law and want to exploit others for their own gain instead of the good of everyone. If you were born into a small ancient tribe and didn't pull your weight you'd die, but i doubt it happened that much? If some major disater happened wiping out most of the human race the survivors would revert back to cooperation/ equality in order to survive i would think?

[neems 2,406]

You only need a basic high school education to well in life

 

How many people do you know that make any use of what they learned in secondary school?

 

A very small % of people I'm guessing,a complete waste of time for the majority,most should be out learning trades at 14 and not fecking algebra.

 

Our kids who'll soon be stuck in 'education' until 18 won't be able to compete with other Europeans who can freely travel here and will have been in trades or trade schools since 13-14.

[mackay 3,580]

Everyone isn't equal, everyone can't be equal.

Someones got to clean the bogs.

[neems 2,406]

 

 

 

 

yes but some schools are only that in name

 

Absolutely, but is that not a good argument to reform state education? Rather than enforce a mandatory fully socialist system?

 

To reform state education to ensure all state educated children are given the same education is to raise the masses to approach the standard of the elite.

 

To enforce a fully socialist education system (ban private and make state the only option) is to drag the elite down to the level of the masses.

 

Besides, I don't believe that our current state system is as bad as all that anyway. Though improvements can always be made and should always be strived for. Too many kids aren't taking advantage of what's on offer, they'd rather be stoned out their face than revise for their exams. That doesn't make the kids that do strive for more 'fortunate', it makes them smart.

 

As I've said before, there are social issues/environments that almost destine kids for a bad life. They aren't raised to make good choices and so the cycle is self perpetuating. Maybe then this socialist ideal should evolve to the state raising all children too, so they get the right and fair upbringing?

 

I hate the idea personally. Life is unfair, not everyone is born equal, that's nature, as much as we as humans try to separate from it.

 

 

I think originally people were born equal, under mother nature, people aren't born equal in society now that's true, but that's down to human nature, not mother nature surely. Like it or not humans are hard wired to be socialist, cooperative, we wouldn't have made it this far if not. The will to live/thrive obviously played its part in our development to this stage, but combined with over population its now likely to be our downfall.

 

Truther how can this be correct if humans Evolved? Of course we are all born different, even as cave men.

Some will have been better hunters than others and they might have lived when others died.

Some might have been more savvy at keeping warm than others, they will survive when others died.

 

It's nature. There's strong and weak in all species, ourselves included. And all survive fine when the goings good. However, in times of temperature fluctuation/ food shortage/etc then only the best of the species will survive. In Homo Sapien it is obvious that the smartest ones will prosper....the rest will just tread water.....

 

 

Funnily enough i added a bit on to the last post to BH that covered this, but decided to delete. It's a fair point granted, but originally cooperation was the name of the game, like it being hard wired into us not to kill a fellow human under normal circumstances. Early man would have to cooperate to survive, everyone would have their place, and in a small group everyone would play a valuable role and be needed by the tribe as a whole, some people still live like this today. You'd always have leaders, more likely looked at as elders wiser than the younger ones, but in small groups people would be more or less equal imo? The trouble starts with bigger numbers and individuals who go against natural law and want to exploit others for their own gain instead of the good of everyone. If you were born into a small ancient tribe and didn't pull your weight you'd die, but i doubt it happened that much? If some major disater happened wiping out most of the human race the survivors would revert back to cooperation/ equality in order to survive i would think?

 

 

There's an old saying

 

'do business with strangers,sit and eat with your family'

 

That's the core of socialism and capitalism issue imo

[J Darcy 5,871]

 

You only need a basic high school education to well in life

 

How many people do you know that make any use of what they learned in secondary school?

 

A very small % of people I'm guessing,a complete waste of time for the majority,most should be out learning trades at 14 and not fecking algebra.

 

Our kids who'll soon be stuck in 'education' until 18 won't be able to compete with other Europeans who can freely travel here and will have been in trades or trade schools since 13-14.

 

Agreed! I should think that making kids stay on til they're 18 is for unemployment rates and nothing else...

[Born Hunter 17,907]

 

 

You only need a basic high school education to well in life

 

How many people do you know that make any use of what they learned in secondary school?

 

A very small % of people I'm guessing,a complete waste of time for the majority,most should be out learning trades at 14 and not fecking algebra.

 

Our kids who'll soon be stuck in 'education' until 18 won't be able to compete with other Europeans who can freely travel here and will have been in trades or trade schools since 13-14.

 

Agreed! I should think that making kids stay on til they're 18 is for unemployment rates and nothing else...

 

 

I don't agree. But I'm pretty sure the 18 thing is actually because we're one of the very few 1st world countries that don't keep kids on till 18? Our education system is lacking in the quality of it's produce and I think that has been identified as one problem. Might be wrong?

[Truther 1,579]

 

truther said it better than I could. They don't want education standards too high for the majority and its not just education its the social structure you were raised in as well in my opinion.

 

Who's 'they' and how do you know this?

 

That's obviously rhetorical, I presume you're referring to the elite that control so many aspect of society. I'd replace 'control' with 'influence' but that's another debate.

 

Getting to the point, I'd counter your argument with; true capitalism doesn't allow state (or any force higher) control. The controlling factors are the market. Today, school/Uni education is demanded by the people because that's what's seen as being the best way to the top. If everyone was educated and the skill of washing pots was in high demand then the public wouldn't give a feck about conventional education and would be demanding state training in pot washing as the best means to get to the top.

 

Fundamentally, I don't think we'll agree on this because we have different starting points. The likes of Truther and yourself start from the belief that 'they' control society and so what happens is their will, whereas I don't believe that. I believe that the elite certainly have varying degrees of influence on society (sometimes scarily so) through numerous mechanisms but ultimately it's the politicians that have the power and they are a result of what the people create. It's of course not truly democratic (another utopian dream) but it's not quite the NWO conspiracy that's often painted either.

 

I really don't think providing, what is really, quite great education to us masses, and in doing so giving us the knowledge, ability and nature to question and fight anything and everything is a very shrood move for a group that allegedly control us. I just don't buy it.

 

 

But we don't live in a true capitalist society BH, if we did the bankers wouldn't have had a choice but to accept the bail out from the middle eastern consortium? And i think these bankers not wanting to take the hit and having the power to plunge most of the world into a recession to get a 100% return goes a bit beyond "varying degrees of influence" lol.............it's not some tin foil hat conspiracy.........the hard facts are there mate..........politicians are made and broken by these people, to think they have ultimate control is a bit naive imo.

[neems 2,406]

 

 

 

You only need a basic high school education to well in life

 

How many people do you know that make any use of what they learned in secondary school?

 

A very small % of people I'm guessing,a complete waste of time for the majority,most should be out learning trades at 14 and not fecking algebra.

 

Our kids who'll soon be stuck in 'education' until 18 won't be able to compete with other Europeans who can freely travel here and will have been in trades or trade schools since 13-14.

 

Agreed! I should think that making kids stay on til they're 18 is for unemployment rates and nothing else...

 

 

I don't agree. But I'm pretty sure the 18 thing is actually because we're one of the very few 1st world countries that don't keep kids on till 18? Our education system is lacking in the quality of it's produce and I think that has been identified as one problem. Might be wrong?

 

 

No-one can say for sure what the intention is,but we do know for sure it will skew the unemployment figures.

[Born Hunter 17,907]

 

But we don't live in a true capitalist society BH, if we did the bankers wouldn't have had a choice but to accept the bail out from the middle eastern consortium? And i think these bankers not wanting to take the hit and having the power to plunge most of the world into a recession to get a 100% return goes a bit beyond "varying degrees of influence" lol.............it's not some tin foil hat conspiracy.........the hard facts are there mate..........politicians are made and broken by these people, to think they have ultimate control is a bit naive imo.

 

 

To think that 'those people' have total control is naïve imo. The politicians do have total constitutional control of this country (I think we can ignore the monarchy bit), that's a fact as far as I can see, no matter if those politicians are influenced by third parties. Even if that influence is effectively total control, it's still the politician wielding the hammer. I've never come from the stance that our democratic system is pure and doesn't allow third party influence, I'd say that's fairly plain to see but I equally don't quite buy into the full NWO story. I'm generally of the fairly moderate view that any system is flawed and to believe in either extreme is usually garbage. So I'm not arguing that we have a perfect democracy or that Capitalism is the ultimate or whatever. Neither of those statements would be true imo.

 

And you're right we don't have true capitalism. We have a middle ground, and in truth as with the human nature example the answer to the best socioeconomic model is probably a mix. But I certainly lean heavily towards Capitalism, economically at least.

 

My original counter argument stands though, we have state education because the masses want it. We want it because as capitalists we want the smartest way to the top and conventional education is generally seen as the best way to do that. It's available to everyone if they want to take advantage of it, so I really can't see where 'they' are holding us lot back to keep their army of dustbin men strong?

[Born Hunter 17,907]

 

 

I don't agree. But I'm pretty sure the 18 thing is actually because we're one of the very few 1st world countries that don't keep kids on till 18? Our education system is lacking in the quality of it's produce and I think that has been identified as one problem. Might be wrong?

 

 

No-one can say for sure what the intention is,but we do know for sure it will skew the unemployment figures.

 

 

If it gives British kids a better shot at life and makes our country more prosperous then bollocks to the employment figures.

[J Darcy 5,871]

 

 

 

I don't agree. But I'm pretty sure the 18 thing is actually because we're one of the very few 1st world countries that don't keep kids on till 18? Our education system is lacking in the quality of it's produce and I think that has been identified as one problem. Might be wrong?

 

 

No-one can say for sure what the intention is,but we do know for sure it will skew the unemployment figures.

 

 

If it gives British kids a better shot at life and makes our country more prosperous then bollocks to the employment figures.

 

But what if it neither gives UK kids a better shot at life, nor makes UK prosper, what if it's the exact opposite?

[Truther 1,579]

 

 

But we don't live in a true capitalist society BH, if we did the bankers wouldn't have had a choice but to accept the bail out from the middle eastern consortium? And i think these bankers not wanting to take the hit and having the power to plunge most of the world into a recession to get a 100% return goes a bit beyond "varying degrees of influence" lol.............it's not some tin foil hat conspiracy.........the hard facts are there mate..........politicians are made and broken by these people, to think they have ultimate control is a bit naive imo.

 

 

To think that 'those people' have total control is naïve imo. The politicians do have total constitutional control of this country (I think we can ignore the monarchy bit), that's a fact as far as I can see, no matter if those politicians are influenced by third parties. Even if that influence is effectively total control, it's still the politician wielding the hammer. I've never come from the stance that our democratic system is pure and doesn't allow third party influence, I'd say that's fairly plain to see but I equally don't quite buy into the full NWO story. I'm generally of the fairly moderate view that any system is flawed and to believe in either extreme is usually garbage. So I'm not arguing that we have a perfect democracy or that Capitalism is the ultimate or whatever. Neither of those statements would be true imo.

 

And you're right we don't have true capitalism. We have a middle ground, and in truth as with the human nature example the answer to the best socioeconomic model is probably a mix. But I certainly lean heavily towards Capitalism, economically at least.

 

My original counter argument stands though, we have state education because the masses want it. We want it because as capitalists we want the smartest way to the top and conventional education is generally seen as the best way to do that. It's available to everyone if they want to take advantage of it, so I really can't see where 'they' are holding us lot back to keep their army of dustbin men strong?

 

 

They don't have "absolute" control (yet) if they did i doubt Iran would have just got the nuclear agreement result they wanted.........They still have to get consent from the majority............if its a majority decision you can't argue with it in a democracy.............but i don't have to like how they go about it in a democracy either

 

I agree on education being important, and the way forward.......but i don't think everything that could be done is being done, and that suits the people who have the power to change things. They do want the best of the best..........for eg...........anyone who graduates from certain Universities in Iran gets automatic citizenship of America............if they want it?...........no qualms about brain draining other countries, just not so keen on educating their own to the best of our ability it seems.

[Born Hunter 17,907]

 

 

 

 

I don't agree. But I'm pretty sure the 18 thing is actually because we're one of the very few 1st world countries that don't keep kids on till 18? Our education system is lacking in the quality of it's produce and I think that has been identified as one problem. Might be wrong?

 

 

No-one can say for sure what the intention is,but we do know for sure it will skew the unemployment figures.

 

 

If it gives British kids a better shot at life and makes our country more prosperous then bollocks to the employment figures.

 

But what if it neither gives UK kids a better shot at life, nor makes UK prosper, what if it's the exact opposite?

 

 

Then ditch it. But it's my understanding, and please correct me if I'm wrong, that our state education system is not pulling it's weight when benchmarked against other comparable countries and one reason identified for this was the young leaving age. Based on the above it strikes me as a fairly sensible reform. It may well fudge the youth employment stats but it'd be misleading and wrong to let that overshadow the former.

[desertbred 5,490]

Some one mentioned market forces controlling the economy simple word cobblers, Capitalists all over the world manipulate market forces , by supply and demand both can be artificially manipulated governments and capitalists manipulate currency and interest rates to suit their particular policy , be it political or financial some really blinkered people trying to justify the unjustifiable. The same goes for the educational achievement, a very small percentage of the boy from the street make good ,more of the educated elite have a far better opportunity and attainment level ,it is by who you know not what you know. Any one who believes that equal opportunities exist in society should open their ears and eyes even the holder of the scales of justice is blindfolded do you thing even in the legal profession the chances and positions attainable are balanced by a lot more than Educational achievement.? Even race ,religion, colour social status, even regional accents can and do play a large roll in what is achieved by the individual. in any profession or occupation, maybe not in trades or blue collar positions but certainly in upper echelons of occupations

[Born Hunter 17,907]

Some one mentioned market forces controlling the economy simple word cobblers, Capitalists all over the world manipulate market forces ,

 

So why do Capitalists manipulate market forces if those market forces don't control the economy? I can't get my head round that statement.