Religion/god Given Rights..

[neems 2,406]

 

Unlike the fanatical religions which actively forced/force people to convert,paganism in Europe evolved independently in sync with the minds of the European people.

 

Where's your proof?

You want me to show you sources that Christians forced people to convert?

 

That negroids have low IQ's?

 

That chinks don't empathise?

 

Or that paganism evolved independently in Europe?

 

The last one I will struggle to prove,but I think logic would dictate non-Europeans would have avoided northern Europe,and I think the religions of Europe where basically the same.

[Malt 379]

 

 

Unlike the fanatical religions which actively forced/force people to convert,paganism in Europe evolved independently in sync with the minds of the European people.

Where's your proof?

You want me to show you sources that Christians forced people to convert?

 

That negroids have low IQ's?

 

That chinks don't empathise?

 

Or that paganism evolved independently in Europe?

 

The last one I will struggle to prove,but I think logic would dictate non-Europeans would have avoided northern Europe,and I think the religions of Europe where basically the same.

 

I thought it was pretty clear from the bit I cut out of what you posted what I was asking you to prove.. Beliefs have travelled from place to place, spread, changed and displaced older ones ever since man has been moving about. Take the ancient greeks. They had their own views and beliefs but they changed at the start of the bronze age when they started trading with the tribes in the east. The old gods were replaced by new gods and stories told about how it changed. A cave on Crete that was venerated as the dwelling place of a fertility god called Kouros then became the place where Zeus was hidden from his father Cronos and raised by his grandmother Gaia. You are aware of Gaia, and the pagan equivalent mother earth, sound familiar? It came from the east.. Your idea that our pagan ancestors were like modern peace loving hippy type wiccans, druids and pagans is laughable if I'm honest.. You seriously think that our neolithic ancestors moved 10 ton sarson stones about the place and making henges with them took place without someone higher up the food chain telling them what to do and what would happen to them if they didn't? Paganism was another organised religion just like any mainstream once today, no matter what you say it was..

[gnasher16 31,442]

 

A black hole is a thing..............nothing is not a thing so there cant be time in it.

 

Gnasher mate, you're right by our laws of physics in this universe. Problem is we are assuming all 'this' came from nothing simply because it all came from a singularity and expanded. We literally have no idea what was there before, if indeed there was a 'before', and if there was a before how the laws of that universe (for lack of a better word) behaved. We just don't know and will possibly be limited by the boundary conditions of our universe. It doesn't mean science doesn't exist outside of it, just that are not able to work with from within ours.

 

 

While i wouldnt pretend i could even hold a conversation with someone with your knowledge on a subject like this with anything more than just common sense thinking,i do think conversations of this nature nearly always reach the same conclusion......that being " we just dont know ".....

 

What i dont get is if something cant come from nothing ...and " before " is infinity/the law of entropy and all that caper.....then how can there be a now.....infinity has no start and no end so how can there be a now......if something kicked off this expansion that wasnt bound by the rules of time then it obviously transcends human understanding..........so for me i dont see why this spontaneous creation where a universe came from nothing can be believable but creating a God from nothing is totally inconceivable.

 

Anyway,appreciate your thoughts mate the collection of opinions is all good when time comes for another rethink

[WILF 50,006]

Gnasher, if you start on with all this caper in the box at the match your pals will aim you out after about 5 minutes !! .......you will be down in the stands with the riff raff ! Lol

[neems 2,406]

I didn't say our ancestors were hippies,or wiccans,modern people have interpreted the religion mostly IMO in 1 of those 3 ways.

I believe they were true to nature,which can be cruel and is uncompromising.

 

They may well have used slaves,we also know the lineage was very important to them so we can assume they almost certainly had some sort of hierrachy/caste system,so what?

 

The point is the ideaology isn't/wasn't used as a method of control.

 

Where's your proof it was just like any modern religion?

[Malt 379]

I didn't say our ancestors were hippies,or wiccans,modern people have interpreted the religion mostly IMO in 1 of those 3 ways.

I believe they were true to nature,which can be cruel and is uncompromising.

 

They may well have used slaves,we also know the lineage was very important to them so we can assume they almost certainly had some sort of hierrachy/caste system,so what?

 

The point is the ideaology isn't/wasn't used as a method of control.

 

Where's your proof it was just like any modern religion?

 

I've read plenty of stuff and watched plenty of documentaries about ancient religions from the Celts to ancient Greeks, it seriously interests me living in a part of the world with plenty of sites to visit. Not proof as such but certainly gives a better picture than picking stuff out my head and coming out with it just because I think it sounds about right..

[Born Hunter 17,910]

 

 

A black hole is a thing..............nothing is not a thing so there cant be time in it.

 

Gnasher mate, you're right by our laws of physics in this universe. Problem is we are assuming all 'this' came from nothing simply because it all came from a singularity and expanded. We literally have no idea what was there before, if indeed there was a 'before', and if there was a before how the laws of that universe (for lack of a better word) behaved. We just don't know and will possibly be limited by the boundary conditions of our universe. It doesn't mean science doesn't exist outside of it, just that are not able to work with from within ours.

 

 

While i wouldnt pretend i could even hold a conversation with someone with your knowledge on a subject like this with anything more than just common sense thinking,i do think conversations of this nature nearly always reach the same conclusion......that being " we just dont know ".....

 

What i dont get is if something cant come from nothing ...and " before " is infinity/the law of entropy and all that caper.....then how can there be a now.....infinity has no start and no end so how can there be a now......if something kicked off this expansion that wasnt bound by the rules of time then it obviously transcends human understanding..........so for me i dont see why this spontaneous creation where a universe came from nothing can be believable but creating a God from nothing is totally inconceivable.

 

Anyway,appreciate your thoughts mate the collection of opinions is all good when time comes for another rethink

 

 

Right to the crux of the problem, we have hit the limits of human knowledge at nano seconds after the big bang, right there we are left a bit perplexed as to what happened. I'm not sure I understand what you mean by infinity and all that but I'll have a crack at the rest. I'm not afraid to say "I don't know", the scientific community have been saying it for years and gradually with research saying "I now know". We have pushed the limits of our understanding further and further to the point we are at today. So what's more believable, that science will continue to further our understanding or that a devine power that we are not allowed to question where or how it came to be made it all? I mean it's unreasonable to say we aren't sure what caused the Big Bang but it's perfectly reasonable to say yeah it must be god but we aren't sure where he came from either but don't question it. Science is all around us, it's proven to be the cause of everything we have ever experienced, now there's a few things we don't yet understand and I'm told it's logical that some devine power created it, no questions asked? That just seems ludicrous to me mate, utterly mental.

[WILF 50,006]

I always use this one but I think it's a good example, Born Hunter (or any other scientific type person).....is there a scientific explanation as to why a stranger will sacrifice their life for another stranger?.......push them out the way of a bus or something?

 

It's the most un-natural thing in the world for an animal to do IMHO

[Malt 379]

Altruism?

[Huan72 687]

Pagan cultures were controlled by their lifestyle, the crops don't grow someone's gonna get it etc. The people who decided who next months sacrifice was, would have been very powerful indeed That's were modern paganism differs as a religion or a set of beliefs, it can be approached with the benefit of knowledge. Paganism would have been part of living in the natural world, and the change from hunter gatherer to agriculture gave the agricultural calendar as used by modern pagans/wiccans. Were as paganism was born out of a life and death physical need to eat and survive and to understand a very big world, modern paganism was born out of a desire for spiritual and maybe intellectual growth and normally a desire to live with nature rather than dominate her. The motivation for the two things are worlds apart and I don't see modern paganism as a watered down version of classical paganism, it is something quite different in its own right

[gnasher16 31,442]

Gnasher, if you start on with all this caper in the box at the match your pals will aim you out after about 5 minutes !! .......you will be down in the stands with the riff raff ! Lol

 

No they are used to it i have these mad intellectual moments from time to time i usually spoil it all with a mad swearing rage when i run out of steam and its back to reality

 

Makes you wonder though mate theres some knowledgeable folk out there we rub shoulders with in day to day life even on the ol www.......very impressive.

[neems 2,406]

 

I didn't say our ancestors were hippies,or wiccans,modern people have interpreted the religion mostly IMO in 1 of those 3 ways.

I believe they were true to nature,which can be cruel and is uncompromising.

They may well have used slaves,we also know the lineage was very important to them so we can assume they almost certainly had some sort of hierrachy/caste system,so what?

The point is the ideaology isn't/wasn't used as a method of control.

Where's your proof it was just like any modern religion?

 

I've read plenty of stuff and watched plenty of documentaries about ancient religions from the Celts to ancient Greeks, it seriously interests me living in a part of the world with plenty of sites to visit. Not proof as such but certainly gives a better picture than picking stuff out my head and coming out with it just because I think it sounds about right..

I tend to avoid the television when I'm looking for real info.

 

I read,the original (translated) sources and read what others have to say on the matter and come to my own conclusion.

I mainly read up on our northern ancestors because they were far less affected by Christianity than the southern countries.

 

But even then we can't often know for sure exactly what took place for a few reasons,so a lot of it has to be intuitive.

 

Which is why it is important that we are genetically similar to our ancestors and can comprehend how they thought.

[Malt 379]

Altruism?

here you go Wilf, I just done a bit of googling and came up with this:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Price_equation

[The Seeker 3,048]

I always use this one but I think it's a good example, Born Hunter (or any other scientific type person).....is there a scientific explanation as to why a stranger will sacrifice their life for another stranger?.......push them out the way of a bus or something?

It's the most un-natural thing in the world for an animal to do IMHO

Great question mate, never considered that myself.

[Born Hunter 17,910]

I look at it like this; Millenia ago we knew next to feck all and religion explained all the big questions. We'd look out into the sky with awe much as we do today, we would see all these points of light passing us by, it was perfectly sensible that we were all there was and these object passed over us daily which the gods controlled, what else could possibly explain it? Then we figured the Earth was round and these objects were in fact distant from us, it then became perfectly sensible that we were the center of our known universe and every day these things orbited us. Again, of course we were at the center, why would god do anything else with his most wonderful creation? Then we figured that in fact we ordbited the sun which was part of a greater galaxy! Suddenly we aren't so important like God would have us believe, hmmmmm.

 

You see constantly through history God has lived in the shadows of science the areas where science couldn't touch, always explaining the things science could not. Now we have pushed God right back to the very beginning of the universe less than a second after the Big Bang. After all this progress why should I believe that science is not the creator? Why is it more logical to believe that an intelligence that cannot be understood did it when there is no other evidence of this and time and time again throughout history science has proven the Gods wrong? It makes no sense to me!

 

I can't prove God doesn't exist because the theory of God is always in the regions beyond todays knowledge. Today we say God caused the Big Bang, in 100 years suppose we are able to explain how the space time of a universe is created and where all it's energy comes from with yet another area of Physics, where will God be then? I'll tell you in yet another shadow of our knowledge!

 

I don't mean to offend anybody with this post, it's just 'my faith'. Only I like to think my faith has been earnt and is not blind simply for the pleasure and comfort of having all the answers today.

 

Please, pick as many faults as you can.... I'm searching for the truth like any purist Physicist.