Government u turn

[Guest thebigdog]

just saying

[Born Hunter 17,960]

You wait til the kites arrive!

 

They have arrived here this year! They have been nesting at a National Trust site about 10 miles away for a few years now and last weekend my friend was telling me he saw one in the village. In 10 years there will be thousands of them.

 

There was one soaring above the lake at the Belvoir show last sunday............

 

I was up there for a couple of weeks not to long ago looking after a mates house and saw the kites regularly. If the dogs caught something they were circling over them instantly. Always freshly shot squirrels left about, I assumed to feed off the kites.

[Moll. 1,793]

So what are the government planning to do about this buzzard problem then?

[kenny14 656]

which experts reckon there are too many buzzards in the UK, damaging the ecosystem? I thought it was about saving moor frickin game birds, so they can make even more money and keep paying taxes whilst shutting down the countryside to everyone else. I have no problem with game keeping but it really pisses me off with the double standards

 

What double standards? They aren't hiding the fact that the research is for the 'game industry'. So what is your point?

 

Well one example would be that apparently we can't hunt foxes with dogs anymore because it is considered cruel...unless you are protecting game birds. I consider that to be completely mental, why isn't it OK to hunt a fox for killing chickens or lambs or for sport? Then this example, no-one has raised any issues suggesting buzzards are too common and are in any way damaging the ecosystem and have been a protected species for years, with fines dealt for people killing them when they see them as a threat to pigeons etc. Yet to suggest it is OK for people to kill a protected bird because they might kill young game birds is a double standard again. It should not be one rule for those who are rich enough to release and shoot pheasants and another for those who don't own land. I don't want to stereotype pheasant hunters as all being upper class because that is bollocks, but there is so much money in the sport that they can evade the laws the rest of us get stumped with and I resent that. I would rather every single non-indigenous animal was wiped out of the UK than a single native have to die, I don't understand why a pheasant is important to the countyside.

because the countryside in part relies on the income they generate, the same as fishing,riding to hounds,stalking and various other money generating persuits.

Your correct Paulus....a multi million pound industry and its being effected by the ever increasing Buzzard. I'm out as i cant be arsed argueing about the class war thing.....thats a load of shite...

 

Are they really making a big problem for you? Most keepers I have spoken to admit to not being their biggest fan but hate poaching and cars infinitely more, or blaming other farms for trying to lure them away

 

The largest problem we have are buzzards and goshawks. Imagine you have something like 10 birds around a release pen, and they take one poult each, everyday, even if only for the first month, thats something like 300 birds, from that pen . . . . . . which is crippling.

 

You're not kidding. But you're very lucky if they only take one a day, and it's the ones that are killed and just left that paisses you off most........ Oh but wait a minute, we're told that they only kill what they need. Load of bollocks!!

[kenny14 656]

So what are the government planning to do about this buzzard problem then?

 

I'd hazard a guess at...........................................

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Absolutely sweet F.A as usual

[The one 8,594]

You cant hunt with dogs because l.a.c.s. gave blair a load of cash to help him win the election so he had to come good on his promise to them ,wonder if the R.S.P.B. done the same ?.

[Lab 10,979]

which experts reckon there are too many buzzards in the UK, damaging the ecosystem? I thought it was about saving moor frickin game birds, so they can make even more money and keep paying taxes whilst shutting down the countryside to everyone else. I have no problem with game keeping but it really pisses me off with the double standards

 

What double standards? They aren't hiding the fact that the research is for the 'game industry'. So what is your point?

 

Well one example would be that apparently we can't hunt foxes with dogs anymore because it is considered cruel...unless you are protecting game birds. I consider that to be completely mental, why isn't it OK to hunt a fox for killing chickens or lambs or for sport? Then this example, no-one has raised any issues suggesting buzzards are too common and are in any way damaging the ecosystem and have been a protected species for years, with fines dealt for people killing them when they see them as a threat to pigeons etc. Yet to suggest it is OK for people to kill a protected bird because they might kill young game birds is a double standard again. It should not be one rule for those who are rich enough to release and shoot pheasants and another for those who don't own land. I don't want to stereotype pheasant hunters as all being upper class because that is bollocks, but there is so much money in the sport that they can evade the laws the rest of us get stumped with and I resent that. I would rather every single non-indigenous animal was wiped out of the UK than a single native have to die, I don't understand why a pheasant is important to the countyside.

because the countryside in part relies on the income they generate, the same as fishing,riding to hounds,stalking and various other money generating persuits.

Your correct Paulus....a multi million pound industry and its being effected by the ever increasing Buzzard. I'm out as i cant be arsed argueing about the class war thing.....thats a load of shite...

 

Are they really making a big problem for you? Most keepers I have spoken to admit to not being their biggest fan but hate poaching and cars infinitely more, or blaming other farms for trying to lure them away

Well i'm kind of late to answer your question as others have answered already but i'll just add you have mentioned 2 other factors that really a keeper can do very little about. Lets take the car thing...birds will get killed on the road thats a fact and people will poach. You cant be every where 24/7 so these problems will continue and you can only do your best to prevent them. In the buzzards case you can do something about it by shooting and trapping if there were to be legalised. No one wants to eradicate them just dealing with problem birds would be sufficient.......

[Guest cookiemonsterandmerlin]

which experts reckon there are too many buzzards in the UK, damaging the ecosystem? I thought it was about saving moor frickin game birds, so they can make even more money and keep paying taxes whilst shutting down the countryside to everyone else. I have no problem with game keeping but it really pisses me off with the double standards

 

What double standards? They aren't hiding the fact that the research is for the 'game industry'. So what is your point?

 

Well one example would be that apparently we can't hunt foxes with dogs anymore because it is considered cruel...unless you are protecting game birds. I consider that to be completely mental, why isn't it OK to hunt a fox for killing chickens or lambs or for sport? Then this example, no-one has raised any issues suggesting buzzards are too common and are in any way damaging the ecosystem and have been a protected species for years, with fines dealt for people killing them when they see them as a threat to pigeons etc. Yet to suggest it is OK for people to kill a protected bird because they might kill young game birds is a double standard again. It should not be one rule for those who are rich enough to release and shoot pheasants and another for those who don't own land. I don't want to stereotype pheasant hunters as all being upper class because that is bollocks, but there is so much money in the sport that they can evade the laws the rest of us get stumped with and I resent that. I would rather every single non-indigenous animal was wiped out of the UK than a single native have to die, I don't understand why a pheasant is important to the countyside.

 

Do you include Rabbits and Hares, Fallow etc in that?

 

Yep, if we could replace them with what has already been wiped out. I would much rather see red squirrels than greys, even bears and wolves if it were practical but this is all just wishful thinking and I am very happy we have rabbits & hare

I understand pheasants create billions of pounds of revenue which is why they are granted such exceptions, that is just the way it is. But I don't think it correct that money can buy laws, everyone should be able to hunt a fox to protect any animal they care to. For example a flock of rare geese was just wiped out at the zoo my gf works and they can do absolutely f**k all about it. There is no way they can keep it out, nor use most methods for obvious reasons and no success with a live trap and it is a matter of time before something else is taken.

 

 

I thought when this was belivable until I reached the ZOO MY GIRLFRIEND WORK AT line and then I relized it was fictonal

 

ATB Cookie

[Guest cookiemonsterandmerlin]

which experts reckon there are too many buzzards in the UK, damaging the ecosystem? I thought it was about saving moor frickin game birds, so they can make even more money and keep paying taxes whilst shutting down the countryside to everyone else. I have no problem with game keeping but it really pisses me off with the double standards

 

What double standards? They aren't hiding the fact that the research is for the 'game industry'. So what is your point?

 

Well one example would be that apparently we can't hunt foxes with dogs anymore because it is considered cruel...unless you are protecting game birds. I consider that to be completely mental, why isn't it OK to hunt a fox for killing chickens or lambs or for sport? Then this example, no-one has raised any issues suggesting buzzards are too common and are in any way damaging the ecosystem and have been a protected species for years, with fines dealt for people killing them when they see them as a threat to pigeons etc. Yet to suggest it is OK for people to kill a protected bird because they might kill young game birds is a double standard again. It should not be one rule for those who are rich enough to release and shoot pheasants and another for those who don't own land. I don't want to stereotype pheasant hunters as all being upper class because that is bollocks, but there is so much money in the sport that they can evade the laws the rest of us get stumped with and I resent that. I would rather every single non-indigenous animal was wiped out of the UK than a single native have to die, I don't understand why a pheasant is important to the countyside.

because the countryside in part relies on the income they generate, the same as fishing,riding to hounds,stalking and various other money generating persuits.

Your correct Paulus....a multi million pound industry and its being effected by the ever increasing Buzzard. I'm out as i cant be arsed argueing about the class war thing.....thats a load of shite...

 

Are they really making a big problem for you? Most keepers I have spoken to admit to not being their biggest fan but hate poaching and cars infinitely more, or blaming other farms for trying to lure them away

Well i'm kind of late to answer your question as others have answered already but i'll just add you have mentioned 2 other factors that really a keeper can do very little about. Lets take the car thing...birds will get killed on the road thats a fact and people will poach. You cant be every where 24/7 so these problems will continue and you can only do your best to prevent them. In the buzzards case you can do something about it by shooting and trapping if there were to be legalised. No one wants to eradicate them just dealing with problem birds would be sufficient.......

 

Agree Lab what some folk cant grasp is most keepers and hunter enjoy watching things they hunt its part of the enjoyment of living and working in the countryside .

 

 

The last thing I want and you and others is eradcation of birds of prey badgers etc we just what to control the levels to damage caused to crops/livestock and the other critters within the foodchain.

 

You cant keep having top predators without either natural control or human control.

The greatest exmaple is homo sapian we have been top of tree and our time will come when we exhaust our worlds resources and we need either a natural population reduction or inlist a population control ourselves.

 

ATB Cookie

Edited May 30, 2012 by cookiemonsterandmerlin

[paulus 26]

which experts reckon there are too many buzzards in the UK, damaging the ecosystem? I thought it was about saving moor frickin game birds, so they can make even more money and keep paying taxes whilst shutting down the countryside to everyone else. I have no problem with game keeping but it really pisses me off with the double standards

 

What double standards? They aren't hiding the fact that the research is for the 'game industry'. So what is your point?

 

Well one example would be that apparently we can't hunt foxes with dogs anymore because it is considered cruel...unless you are protecting game birds. I consider that to be completely mental, why isn't it OK to hunt a fox for killing chickens or lambs or for sport? Then this example, no-one has raised any issues suggesting buzzards are too common and are in any way damaging the ecosystem and have been a protected species for years, with fines dealt for people killing them when they see them as a threat to pigeons etc. Yet to suggest it is OK for people to kill a protected bird because they might kill young game birds is a double standard again. It should not be one rule for those who are rich enough to release and shoot pheasants and another for those who don't own land. I don't want to stereotype pheasant hunters as all being upper class because that is bollocks, but there is so much money in the sport that they can evade the laws the rest of us get stumped with and I resent that. I would rather every single non-indigenous animal was wiped out of the UK than a single native have to die, I don't understand why a pheasant is important to the countyside.

because the countryside in part relies on the income they generate, the same as fishing,riding to hounds,stalking and various other money generating persuits.

Your correct Paulus....a multi million pound industry and its being effected by the ever increasing Buzzard. I'm out as i cant be arsed argueing about the class war thing.....thats a load of shite...

 

Are they really making a big problem for you? Most keepers I have spoken to admit to not being their biggest fan but hate poaching and cars infinitely more, or blaming other farms for trying to lure them away

Well i'm kind of late to answer your question as others have answered already but i'll just add you have mentioned 2 other factors that really a keeper can do very little about. Lets take the car thing...birds will get killed on the road thats a fact and people will poach. You cant be every where 24/7 so these problems will continue and you can only do your best to prevent them. In the buzzards case you can do something about it by shooting and trapping if there were to be legalised. No one wants to eradicate them just dealing with problem birds would be sufficient.......

 

Agree Lab what some folk cant grasp is most keepers and hunter enjoy watching things they hunt its part of the enjoyment of living and working in the countryside .

 

 

The last thing I want and you and others is eradcation of birds of prey badgers etc we just what to control the levels to damage caused to crops/livestock and the other critters within the foodchain.

 

You cant keep having top predators without either natural control or human control.

The greatest exmaple is homo sapian we have been top of tree and our time will come when we exhaust our worlds resources and we need either a natural population reduction or inlist a population control ourselves.

 

ATB Cookie

feck me i agree with cookie............

[kenny14 656]

Spot on cookie.

I find that the best naturalists are almost always fieldsportsmen of some kind

[Ratreeper 441]

which experts reckon there are too many buzzards in the UK, damaging the ecosystem? I thought it was about saving moor frickin game birds, so they can make even more money and keep paying taxes whilst shutting down the countryside to everyone else. I have no problem with game keeping but it really pisses me off with the double standards

 

I suppose you would rather it was all sold off and built on, whatever you say about game estates, at least it remains countryside and usually has something to hunt on, with permission or not.

 

 

Not what I am saying at all, I am all for pheasant shoots and that's a big reason as I am not daft enough to think 90% of small woodland is there for one reason

[Ratreeper 441]

which experts reckon there are too many buzzards in the UK, damaging the ecosystem? I thought it was about saving moor frickin game birds, so they can make even more money and keep paying taxes whilst shutting down the countryside to everyone else. I have no problem with game keeping but it really pisses me off with the double standards

 

What double standards? They aren't hiding the fact that the research is for the 'game industry'. So what is your point?

 

Well one example would be that apparently we can't hunt foxes with dogs anymore because it is considered cruel...unless you are protecting game birds. I consider that to be completely mental, why isn't it OK to hunt a fox for killing chickens or lambs or for sport? Then this example, no-one has raised any issues suggesting buzzards are too common and are in any way damaging the ecosystem and have been a protected species for years, with fines dealt for people killing them when they see them as a threat to pigeons etc. Yet to suggest it is OK for people to kill a protected bird because they might kill young game birds is a double standard again. It should not be one rule for those who are rich enough to release and shoot pheasants and another for those who don't own land. I don't want to stereotype pheasant hunters as all being upper class because that is bollocks, but there is so much money in the sport that they can evade the laws the rest of us get stumped with and I resent that. I would rather every single non-indigenous animal was wiped out of the UK than a single native have to die, I don't understand why a pheasant is important to the countyside.

 

Do you know how little game / wildlife there would be if you removed all non-indigenous animals???

 

And as a counter to your last question - how come a bird of prey is so important to the countryside, as to be offered total protection and immunity, same goes for badgers. Why is it ok to kill a deer, fox, rabbit etc, but not a BOP or stripey?

 

I think if we still had the species that we have wiped out then there would be far more balance with what's left, but like I said that can't happen anymore because there is nowhere wolves etc can live. I don't think it is wrong to kill a badger or likewise, I am saying I think it is wrong that you can only do so to protect gamebirds and the law should be for everyone.

[PoshPikey 560]

"I don't understand why a pheasant is important to the countyside"

 

Then you are a moron and need to try reading a book on the heritage of the English Countryside. Don't blame others for your ignorance.

 

"It should not be one rule for those who are rich enough to release and shoot pheasants and another for those who don't own land. I don't want to stereotype pheasant hunters as all being upper class because that is bollocks, but there is so much money in the sport that they can evade the laws the rest of us get stumped with and I resent that".

 

What a load of balls

[Ratreeper 441]

which experts reckon there are too many buzzards in the UK, damaging the ecosystem? I thought it was about saving moor frickin game birds, so they can make even more money and keep paying taxes whilst shutting down the countryside to everyone else. I have no problem with game keeping but it really pisses me off with the double standards

 

What double standards? They aren't hiding the fact that the research is for the 'game industry'. So what is your point?

 

Well one example would be that apparently we can't hunt foxes with dogs anymore because it is considered cruel...unless you are protecting game birds. I consider that to be completely mental, why isn't it OK to hunt a fox for killing chickens or lambs or for sport? Then this example, no-one has raised any issues suggesting buzzards are too common and are in any way damaging the ecosystem and have been a protected species for years, with fines dealt for people killing them when they see them as a threat to pigeons etc. Yet to suggest it is OK for people to kill a protected bird because they might kill young game birds is a double standard again. It should not be one rule for those who are rich enough to release and shoot pheasants and another for those who don't own land. I don't want to stereotype pheasant hunters as all being upper class because that is bollocks, but there is so much money in the sport that they can evade the laws the rest of us get stumped with and I resent that. I would rather every single non-indigenous animal was wiped out of the UK than a single native have to die, I don't understand why a pheasant is important to the countyside.

 

You really haven't a clue have you. You're completely going off on a tangent and still have'nt explained why buzzard population management is double standards. The hunting act is a completely separate issue brought about for very different reasons.

 

Maybe I am just wrong, I am wrong all the time and can learn from mistakes. But I am basing this on my own experience from hunting with birds of prey, as buzzards are generally very lazy scavengers and don't have the speed, agility or foot size to regularly take adult phessies. So the issue here is the taking of poults, I don't see the best and easiest way of dealing with this is to kill indigenous species. The goshawk is a great example, as they can certainly take a lot of game all year round and were completely wiped out by gamekeepers, and are only breeding again now because falconers have lost birds over the years. So the only way to stop goshawks is to wipe them out again and I am saying I think that is wrong. For the damage that buzzards can feasibly do I also think it is wrong to kill them, because it doesn't solve the problem unless they are wiped out, or if only adult birds were released then there wouldn't be an issue there anyway.

So I know this is making me very unpopular on a hunting website where many people's livelyhood revolves around shoots, but I am not saying I am in any way against shoots just that some losses are common sense and there are more practical ways of protecting birds than shooting native predators. If there is a situation where removing a 'problem bird' would solve the problem like with foxes, then I have no problem with that but it would take regular 'thinning out' to make any impact. To me it is like a trout farmer killing ospreys because it cuts into his profits, I think it should be a risk that is factored in to a business plan. It is not the same as thinning out unnaturally high populations that damage the ecosystem or non-indigenous pests nor vermin, it is a separate issue which has big impications.

 

I know if I was a game keeper I would be singing a different tune, or if I didn't have a soft spot for birds of prey but I will base my opinion on the evidence when I see it, no-one can provide any yet.