I shape my nets, if its 4 foot I start with 8 on the ring upto 18 then straight then back down to 8, I use 2 8 inch needles at the min and I have to join the twine once, I would like to get myself a loomis and give it a try, I've only been making nets for a couple of months but I think the loomis might help speed up the process for me, atb rabbitcatcher