Couldn't wait so I just dug out the pics now! The 2 photos are of my dog Toby. These dogs were bred in Lancashire 78/79 from a Middleton dog called Nugget and a non GM black and tan Lakie. This dog had the reputation of being too hard and his pups were of a similar vein. Although fairly large by today's standards they could "get". Hope this helps some. Cheers, Dytkos (not my real name!)