Bonfires in Ireland.

[WILF 49,543]

1 hour ago, jukel123 said:

I don't think there's a conversation to be had. It's what the history books say. Mind you, who writes the history books and for what reason?

I'm not getting drawn into sectarianism.  I  was brought up a catholic . But I hate, loathe and despise the catholic church. It's the biggest land owner in the world. It spreads ignorance and keeps people in poverty. It should be sold off and its wealth redistributed  for the public good.

As for the Church of England it too has vast amounts of wealth , 11 billion in investments for a start and vast amounts of land to boot.  It's the church of the privileged and the wealthy. You have no need to worry about Islam replacing the church of England. It's still at the heart of British identity and privilege. Its the cornerstone of the  British status quo. Nothing will shake that.. Except me. Like Jesus I would whip the lot of them out of the temples. And give their wealth to the poor as Jesus would.

Imo religion is a monkey on the back of mankind. None practise what they preach.  Bunch of cynical hypocrites.

One day, when I'm fuhrer. They will all pay. No free passes. No exceptions.

Stiffmeister has a massive knowledge of the history of the borders and Scotland, it’s one of his “go to” subjects and my comment was more from the point of it should be interesting to read two people chat about the subject mate.

 

[WILF 49,543]

On the subject of history I heard an amazing stat the other day, it’s pretty hard to check the validity because the interweb is a mine field of garbage so it’s a bit like finding a needle in a haystack.

But anyway, it was an academic type lad that was explaining this particular morsel so here it is:

Upto 1930, something like 99% of all British people in Britain could have traced their  linage/dna/ethnicity back directly to every British person in 930…..they were almost uniquely genetically unchanged ! 
I think that’s an amazing thing…..

[Francie, 2,740]

2 hours ago, jukel123 said:

The  Scots protestants who colonised Ulster were not kicked out of Scotland. They were given grants and occupied land confiscated from the Irish. This was  a deliberate attempt to protestantise Catholic Ireland.

The people kicked out of the Scottish Highlands were tenant crofters. The landlords discovered that sheep were more profitable than renting out crofts. There were mass evictions and Scots emigrated all over the world.

Exactly mate,an what did they actually build stiff?

[WILF 49,543]

1 hour ago, Francie, said:

Exactly mate,a what did they actually build stiff?

What did who build mate ?

Edited July 15 by WILF

[jukel123 9,229]

2 hours ago, WILF said:

What did who build mate ?

Stiff maintains Ulster was built by Scots protestants.

Going back a bit..".The Plantation of Ulster " which was the the process of transplanting mostly lowland protestant Scots and some English into confiscated Irish land after the  9 year war, was different from the 'Highland Clearances' , where tenant Scots were evicted en masse to make way for sheep. It's a very sore subject for the Scots. As is the plantation of Ulster for Irish catholics.

I've had to teach myself this stuff because when I moved to Scotland in the early seventies I was attacked for having been brought up Catholic and supporting Celtic. Which is a club supported by Irish immigrants and their children/ grandchildren etc.

I was also attacked for being a ' border reiver' in Carlisle. I had been on a pub crawl with Scots mates and my attacker had presumed I was Scottish. Both attacks were vigorously defended.Lol

Both incidents ironic because I was born an Englshman in Salford ffs lol.

P.s The jock was a rabid Rangers supporter . During the fight I got lucky because we both fell against a wall. He gashed his eye on the wall really badly. I had him in a headlock with one hand and was punching him with the other. He pleaded with me to let him go. But I barely heard him I was so pumped with adrenalin and fear. In any case I was in no mood for charity .The fight was split up and he needed stitches and I needed a new levi shirt shich was my fookin pride and joy. 

That caused a lot of aggro for years and even affected my wife and her friendships within play groups etc. But  me and the bloke became  friends eventually and played in the same darts pub team.

f**k me , thirty years later, pissed up, he threatened my 18 year old nephew who was up visiting and called him a phenian b*****d.  He was upset.

I went to his house next day with the boy sitting in the car. He genuinely couldn't remember the incident and apologised profusely  to the boy. I believed him.

The thing is sectarianism goes very,very deep. Best to kill it dead. I would never have Rangers v Celtic games on the telly when my boys were growing up. I would never have bought a Celtic strip for my boys if they'd asked. Events which happened hundreds of years ago have f**k all to do with me. Luckily they weren't interested . That's one thing I got right as a dad.

 

Edited July 15 by jukel123

[WILF 49,543]

2 hours ago, jukel123 said:

Stiff maintains Ulster was built by Scots protestants.

It was……to be more accurate anything advanced was.

Upto partition, other than a scattered few castles and fortified houses, you can link almost all modernisation directly back to the arrival of Scottish and English settlers.

Ireland was a clan system based on small communities of subsistence agriculture.

All the historic industry, all the great houses, all the old railway stations, docks, crafted stone buildings, harbours like Newport, Westport have their roots in “Empire” for want of a better word…..all of that was imported from mainland Britain. 

It why they burned so many great houses down here precisely because they were a symbol of Britain.

Belfast, that powerhouse of industry that it was, never happens without the arrival of the Ulster Scots. 

You can literally drive into villages here and immediately tell that they have their roots in mainland Britain just by the layout, the building design and quality, everything….like, it not even a question. 
 

Even the farmland tell you a story, you can immediately tell which areas were historically reached by the empire and which were not…..hence the land in Connaught is tiny little fields of mostly shite quality and as you move closer to Dublin or get over the border going north you see the agricultural setting we are more used to in Britain.

Field layouts are bigger, smarter, soil quality and drainage is better…..none of that is an accident, it’s all man made. 

Quote

Going back a bit..".The Plantation of Ulster " which was the the process of transplanting mostly lowland protestant Scots and some English into confiscated Irish land after the  9 year war, was different from the 'Highland Clearances' , where tenant Scots were evicted en masse to make way for sheep. It's a very sore subject for the Scots. As is the plantation of Ulster for Irish catholics.

 

 

I know some things but not enough to respond to this part of your post so please, I’d be interested to hear more. 

Edited July 15 by WILF

[jukel123 9,229]

24 minutes ago, WILF said:

It was……to be more accurate anything advanced was.

Upto partition, other than a scattered few castles and fortified houses, you can link almost all modernisation directly back to the arrival of Scottish and English settlers.

Ireland was a clan system based on small communities of subsistence agriculture.

All the historic industry, all the great houses, all the old railway stations, docks, crafted stone buildings, harbours like Newport, Westport have their roots in “Empire” for want of a better word…..all of that was imported from mainland Britain. 

It why they burned so many great houses down here precisely because they were a symbol of Britain.

Belfast, that powerhouse of industry that it was, never happens without the arrival of the Ulster Scots. 

You can literally drive into villages here and immediately tell that they have their roots in mainland Britain just by the layout, the building design and quality, everything….like, it not even a question. 

I know some things but not enough to respond to this part of your post so please, I’d be interested to hear more. 

Just Google' Plantation of Ulster' mate . And 'The Highland  Clearances.' Have a look at 'The Duke of Sutherland' as well.

They're all part of Irish/ Scottish history and subsequent bitter sectarianism.

 

Edited July 15 by jukel123

[WILF 49,543]

2 minutes ago, jukel123 said:

Just Google' Plantation of Ulster' mate . And 'The Highland  Clearances.' Have a look at 'The Duke of Roxburgh' as well.

They're all part of Irish/ Scottish history and subsequent bitter sectarianism.

 

I’m not talking about sectarianism, I’m talking the effect of Ulster Scots and British settlers on the infrastructure of ireland…..prejudice aside, modern Ireland doesn’t happen without them. 
 

As I said, I don’t know enough about the other stuff to give an accurate response. 

[Rickshaw swami 4,320]

Being Scots Irish decent I find these talks of yalls very interesting on these subjects.Through random topics on Thl I have come to understand where our beliefs in the hills of Alabama come from.Thanks yall for sharing.Very interesting to me.

Scots Irish I believe yall call Ulster Scots basically built and settled the Appalachian Mountains from North Alabama to West Virginia.From Daniel Boone to General Nathan Bedford Forrest.I now understand why I never met a white Catholic until I was 20 years old.I now understand why the original Klan founded by Scots Irish forbid Catholics.Not looking for arguments just wanted to say thank yall for helping me understand some of my own heritage.

Roots of your raisings run deep.               Merle Haggard

[WILF 49,543]

2 minutes ago, Rickshaw swami said:

Being Scots Irish decent I find these talks of yalls very interesting on these subjects.Through random topics on Thl I have come to understand where our beliefs in the hills of Alabama come from.Thanks yall for sharing.Very interesting to me.

Scots Irish I believe yall call Ulster Scots basically built and settled the Appalachian Mountains from North Alabama to West Virginia.From Daniel Boone to General Nathan Bedford Forrest.I now understand why I never met a white Catholic until I was 20 years old.I now understand why the original Klan founded by Scots Irish forbid Catholics.Not looking for arguments just wanted to say thank yall for helping me understand some of my own heritage.

Roots of your raisings run deep.               Merle Haggard

So my younger daughters boyfriend is almost uniquely a Protestant in his area, which is Sligo, and his name is Armstrong.

Sligo is an hour from Fermanagh and Fermanagh is where lots of the Armstrong’s from Scotland were settled…..he has another family place between his house and Fermanagh. 
 

Stiffmeister has a great knowledge of the names from the border areas of England and Scotland, the history of the border reivers and it was he who gave me some history and pointed me in the right direction to find out more…..

If you put aside the bad blood about various things, our history (the British isles in its entirety) is pretty hard to beat. 

 

[jukel123 9,229]

O

2 hours ago, WILF said:

 

Good to have a civilised exchange despite coming from different sides of the sectarianism fence.

I remember one of my kids brought home a book from school about Irish history. I learned that the Irish would sit about all day peeling tatties with a specially grown long thumbnail . It was their diet almost 100%.They existed on an acre or two and when they weren't peeling tatties, they were producing children by the the teens. My mother came from a family of teens .Several died in childhood.

I guess you would argue that along came the British Empire and changed all that. For better or worse the Empire quick _started vanquished peoples' lives into their way of doing things. 

My family arrived in the UK as economic migrants. My uncles on my mother's side were all below 5 feet in height. They were under nourished,  one had horribly deformed legs as a result of rickets.  I am over 6 feet in height. My mother put it down to free cod liver oil and free orange juice under the benevolence of the NHS. Plus my dad was a prolific thief and brought home all sorts of knocked off food from the docks where he worked.

Some would say these improvements would have happened in time without the atrocities of the British Empire. But it is what it is. It happened. 

I ducked out of arguing about it 50 years back. I don't think my ancestors would have wanted me going about with my hands in fists fighting their battles . I refuse to engage. No point in fighting over historical grievances.

 

[THE STIFFMEISTER 16,746]

It’s almost like there could be some sort of link from the region of Scotland which sent by and large the the largest amount of Scot’s blood to Ulster 

[jukel123 9,229]

2 hours ago, WILF said:

So my younger daughters boyfriend is almost uniquely a Protestant in his area, which is Sligo, and his name is Armstrong.

Sligo is an hour from Fermanagh and Fermanagh is where lots of the Armstrong’s from Scotland were settled…..he has another family place between his house and Fermanagh. 
 

Stiffmeister has a great knowledge of the names from the border areas of England and Scotland, the history of the border reivers and it was he who gave me some history and pointed me in the right direction to find out more…..

If you put aside the bad blood about various things, our history (the British isles in its entirety) is pretty hard to beat. 

 

Armstrong is a famous border reiver name.

As was Charlton, Robson and Millburn.

Jack C was very proud of his border reiver roots. But why you would be proud of cattle thieving murderous ancestors is up for debate.? Lol

[WILF 49,543]

42 minutes ago, jukel123 said:

O

Good to have a civilised exchange despite coming from different sides of the sectarianism fence.

I remember one of my kids brought home a book from school about Irish history. I learned that the Irish would sit about all day peeling tatties with a specially grown long thumbnail . It was their diet almost 100%.They existed on an acre or two and when they weren't peeling tatties, they were producing children by the the teens. My mother came from a family of teens .Several died in childhood.

I guess you would argue that along came the British Empire and changed all that. For better or worse the Empire quick _started vanquished peoples' lives into their way of doing things. 

My family arrived in the UK as economic migrants. My uncles on my mother's side were all below 5 feet in height. They were under nourished,  one had horribly deformed legs as a result of rickets.  I am over 6 feet in height. My mother put it down to free cod liver oil and free orange juice under the benevolence of the NHS. Plus my dad was a prolific thief and brought home all sorts of knocked off food from the docks where he worked.

Some would say these improvements would have happened in time without the atrocities of the British Empire. But it is what it is. It happened. 

I ducked out of arguing about it 50 years back. I don't think my ancestors would have wanted me going about with my hands in fists fighting their battles . I refuse to engage. No point in fighting over historical grievances.

 

I think, for good and bad as history proves, the British empire was surprisingly light touch in all its dealing wherever it was in the world…..so no, I wouldn’t argue that the British empire improved the things that you describe which is in fact how the famine happened. 
 

Wherever it went in the world it built and controlled the infrastructure and means of production, it created a system of law and order but it left well alone anything that it didn’t pay to meddle with….hence the famine, but also hence peoples ability to just live and prosper if they were lucky enough.

A far cry from the state being in every nook and cranny of your life today I’m sure you’d agree. 

It crushed anything that threatened the workings of it all….im not arguing the merits of that, I’m just saying how it governed. 
 

 

[WILF 49,543]

11 minutes ago, jukel123 said:

Armstrong is a famous border reiver name.

As was Charlton, Robson and Millburn.

Jack C was very proud of his border reiver roots. But why you would be proud of cattle thieving murderous ancestors is up for debate.? Lol

Why wouldn’t you find pride in your own history, different times mate….if everyone was going about putting each other to the sword and stealing cattle then I’d be pretty proud of my ancestors if they were some of the best at it.