Any of you lads heard of her???

[Nicepix 5,650]

I really don't get this crossing malarkey. There is no guarantee that you will get the improvements that you want. You might end up with the worst traits of both breeds and the pups could be a right mixture. It takes knowledgeable people many generations to achieve a stable line of the traits that they have set out to obtain. And there will be more failures than successes.

[Chid 6,377]

2 minutes ago, Nicepix said:

I really don't get this crossing malarkey. There is no guarantee that you will get the improvements that you want. You might end up with the worst traits of both breeds and the pups could be a right mixture. It takes knowledgeable people many generations to achieve a stable line of the traits that they have set out to obtain. And there will be more failures than successes.

But it's worth a try to improve a breed/type

[WILF 44,334]

2 minutes ago, Nicepix said:

. And there will be more failures than successes.

That’s why you have to be ruthless if things don’t come up to the standard you want and careful who you give pups to because they may not be of the same mind.

[Nicepix 5,650]

1 hour ago, Chid said:

But it's worth a try to improve a breed/type

But for how long? If you cross a pair on year 1 the pups won't be ready for mating until year 3 at the earliest and it will be 4 years before you know what you've actually got. Even then you can't be sure that the genes you are aiming for will be passed on to successive generations. to do it right takes year and years and as Wilf says; what do you do with the rejects?

Read up on the how the big organisations; Met' Police and Guide Dogs for example set up their breeding programs. It takes at least 4 or 5 generations before you see consistency in the offspring. And they have the benefit of paying top dollar for the right dogs and right genetic advice.

Back in 2007 I brought 13 dogs into police training. All but one were freebies that had been offered as young dogs by members of the public. The other cost £90 to an animal charity. All 13 dogs were licensed and worked full terms of 5 to 10 years dependent on breed and purpose. The powers that be decided this wasn't the way forward so decided to buy 'ready made'  dogs from Eastern and Central Europe. Initially each dog cost £3,000 and quickly rose to £5,000 as other forces followed suit. The success rate plummeted and we were binning at least one in four dogs that we had paid for. Then they went into a breeding program and the rate of births to successful licensed police dogs was about 5% - 10%. And they threw thousands of £'s into that failed program.

If you devote your whole life to modifying one breed you'd be lucky to succeed.

[stumfelter 3,032]

1 hour ago, Nicepix said:

 

If you devote your whole life to modifying one breed you'd be lucky to succeed.

But look at the bonuses if you do succeed, take Brian Plummer for instance, he stuck at it and produced probably the finest terrier to work on or in god's green and pleasant land....

[Nicepix 5,650]

15 minutes ago, stumfelter said:

But look at the bonuses if you do succeed, take Brian Plummer for instance, he stuck at it and produced probably the finest terrier to work on or in god's green and pleasant land....

Depends on your point of view and what you want from a dog. Personally, having met him and read a couple of his books I don't believe a word of what Plummer said or wrote.

[Odin 183]

9 minutes ago, Nicepix said:

Depends on your point of view and what you want from a dog. Personally, having met him and read a couple of his books I don't believe a word of what Plummer said or wrote.

Jesus,you don't think he lied to us do you!

[WILF 44,334]

2 hours ago, Nicepix said:

But for how long? If you cross a pair on year 1 the pups won't be ready for mating until year 3 at the earliest and it will be 4 years before you know what you've actually got. Even then you can't be sure that the genes you are aiming for will be passed on to successive generations. to do it right takes year and years and as Wilf says; what do you do with the rejects?

Read up on the how the big organisations; Met' Police and Guide Dogs for example set up their breeding programs. It takes at least 4 or 5 generations before you see consistency in the offspring. And they have the benefit of paying top dollar for the right dogs and right genetic advice.

Back in 2007 I brought 13 dogs into police training. All but one were freebies that had been offered as young dogs by members of the public. The other cost £90 to an animal charity. All 13 dogs were licensed and worked full terms of 5 to 10 years dependent on breed and purpose. The powers that be decided this wasn't the way forward so decided to buy 'ready made'  dogs from Eastern and Central Europe. Initially each dog cost £3,000 and quickly rose to £5,000 as other forces followed suit. The success rate plummeted and we were binning at least one in four dogs that we had paid for. Then they went into a breeding program and the rate of births to successful licensed police dogs was about 5% - 10%. And they threw thousands of £'s into that failed program.

If you devote your whole life to modifying one breed you'd be lucky to succeed.

I personally think you know what you have got a lot sooner than 4 years mate, it will either show up in its general mental manner, physical appearance and state by about 12 months and then from 10 to 12 months once you start letting it have a run at stuff.

By 18 months to 2 years you pretty much know if it’s going to be what you want.

With some pups you only have to watch the parents work (if you have not seen them already) and they may be cause enough to cull.

Keep trying the best to the best and it will throw up a percentage of absolutely outstanding dogs if they have the right work thrown at them.

Every individual owner will have a point which satisfies them, some can live with things others can’t etc etc  

Edited April 23, 2020 by WILF

[Nicepix 5,650]

8 minutes ago, WILF said:

I personally think you know what you have got a lot sooner than 4 years mate, it will either show up in its general mental manner, physical appearance and state by about 12 months and then from 10 to 12 months once you start letting it have a run at stuff.

By 18 months to 2 years you pretty much know if it’s going to be what you want.

With some pups you only have to watch the parents work (if you have not seen them already) and they may be cause enough to cull.

Keep trying the best to the best and it will throw up a percentage of absolutely outstanding dogs if they have the right work thrown at them.

Every individual owner will have a point which satisfies them, some can live with things others can’t etc etc  

I know what you are saying  Wilf, but your second generation pup won't be born until year 3 so given the maturity that you mention it will be four years before you know that the genes of the original pair have been carried through two generations. Of course you could put a bitch into pup at less than 3 years, but it isn't something I would do.

[WILF 44,334]

1 minute ago, Nicepix said:

I know what you are saying  Wilf, but your second generation pup won't be born until year 3 so given the maturity that you mention it will be four years before you know that the genes of the original pair have been carried through two generations. Of course you could put a bitch into pup at less than 3 years, but it isn't something I would do.

In my very uneducated opinion mate it’s about having networks of lads who are of the same mind and trying a few matings and having a few pups of every age group on the ground to see what’s doing well and what’s not doing well.

The shit part is that the really good dogs don’t live long or are highly lightly to sustain a bad injury so you have to play the odds.

[bird 9,594]

4 hours ago, shaaark said:

You still in touch with billhardy, he must know of a few of these crosses?

I've pm, but he not got back, and it was just after, he  A W L,  your right, he know few people still using this x  gsdx grey. 

[shaaark 10,140]

1 minute ago, bird said:

I've pm, but he not got back, and it was just after, he  A W L,  your right, he know few people still using this x  gsdx grey. 

I meant the gsd x malinois crosses

[bird 9,594]

5 minutes ago, shaaark said:

I meant the gsd x malinois crosses

[Nicepix 5,650]

47 minutes ago, WILF said:

In my very uneducated opinion mate it’s about having networks of lads who are of the same mind and trying a few matings and having a few pups of every age group on the ground to see what’s doing well and what’s not doing well.

The shit part is that the really good dogs don’t live long or are highly lightly to sustain a bad injury so you have to play the odds.

Yes, but do the maths Wilf. You need at least two years before you can breed a bitch that you bred from G1 and another stud dog. Then you need to let the pups from G3 to mature so that you can see whether the genes that you want to produce have carried through and there are no unwanted genes. That is at least three and a half years from day one. And then you need another blood line for the next generation which increases the risk. The earliest you could  put G3 into stud would be three and a half years so it is nearly 4 years at the earliest to get the G4 pups. And another 2 years and at least one more stud dog.................