Intresting

[neil cooney 10,415]

What i cant get my head round Neil ,and i like your posts in general ,is that how the hell do you get a dog to enter an unused place in the first instance .I never have although ive never encouraged it but i would be wondering about the dog that enters then says its empty .Is he doing it to please you rather than himself by marking at a holding spot .Ive never owned a dog that wont mark in its own way nor have i owned a dog that will run a place just because youve told it to or egged it on [which is probably the correct context for this practice in the first place to create a waffler lol]

The type of places I mean are not your average 4 or 5 entrances handy holes but big rangey places.

IMO these big places can not be checked properly from above by a quick sniff at the entrances. I'm not talking about a terrier going down and checking every nook and cranny and taking ages but I do expect a terrier to do a bit of checking underground and you'd be surprised how often the most un-used looking of places can have someone at home tucked away in the very tightest of places.

This IMO is something a terrier has to learn by experience and I never egg or gee a terrier on . A terrier that wants to please might start to sound or false mark in an empty place when gee-ed on and that no good.

Like I said terriers are hunting dogs that must look for their own quarry.

I'm talking about big places and not the average earths that most lads are happy to do and let's face it you can often smell it yourself if he's at home or at least been around so to mark and find in such places should be easy for any terrier.

The big rangy places I'm talking about need a good finding terrier who'll search and let you know if it's empty and only then can you walk away satisfied it's empty. If it hasn't been checked then how do you know ?

Also there's not to many lads who can check 30 places such as I'm talking about in a day. Small places, yes, maybe even on the one farm.

Over the years most of my terriers after some experience learn that to check a big place properly they must learn to get down there and have a look.

Some lads don't put enough emphasis on checking earths properly. I've even seen experienced men get of a quad, leave the terrier in the box ,look at the hole and say "dead as a door nail."

How do they know ?

A few years ago in Wales with a fellow member of here we checked a large rangy place in a woods on a large shooting estate.

Fair play, the gentleman said it me to before hand that the earth was massive and usually took a while for the terrier to find.

It looked completely unused and we were beginning to think the keeper was too handy with his rifle but after around 25 minutes of hard searching the terrier found and was dug to.

I'd bet that 9 out of 10 lads would have walked away from that place without a dig.

[HBG 350]

But the terrier knew it was in it could smell it obviously just took time to find,doesn't mean it couldn't smell it from one of the entrances.most holes foxes use never look used unless it's cubbing time then it's a bit more obvious.

[Craic 203]

Well Neil the dog I spoke of yesterday never ever travelled an earth to check, in more than one occasion he went aground and found after a very well regarded terrier travelled and did not find, as said earlier all dogs and owners are different jmho

[DogFox123 1,379]

What if there's a fresh scent but nobody at home then what, would you look down at a dog that's entered and then come out when it's quarry left recently.

[neil cooney 10,415]

I always trust a worker DogFox and if one of my workers says he's not in it then that's good enough for me.

Pups are different though.

 

I used to hear old timers say that if you can smell a fox at an earth then he's NOT in it. Rubbish IMO.

[Haiddheliwr 1,911]

I think that says it all Neil, the end result is putting your faith in your own dog. There are numerous reasons, sometimes at the owners door why dogs false mark! But hey this is the dog game and we are all still on this learning curve although some think they know it all! I must add the majority of posts you make I totally agree with which in my eyes prove you are an experienced dog man who has been there and done that numerous times. Praise where praise is due ATB

[neil cooney 10,415]

Thanks for the kind words Haiddheliwr, I love a good dig but I also love a good debate (or arguement) but two topics that really do get my juices flowing are the entering of youngsters and getting the most out of a terrier .

Breeding methods and families and lines can be spoke about 'till the cows come home but they all have one thing in common. They need a good man behind them to enter them right and make sure they have a long career. Men who can enter pups and keep them going to a good age are rare IMO.

[howdeeposxxt 1,448]

Have had 9 digs so far this season and I can swear to god lads 6 of them were dead as fxxk their would be more life in a snowman. Came on plenty fresh but after a good search out they came as Neil has stated and I to agree with him you must trust your terriers if you can't do that lads your only lying to urself. I'm sure when most of us are walking to an earth and the little fecker is doing cartwheels to get their 50 r 60 yrds away we get excited and are nearly sure in ourselfs something's home it's all good then because we are going to enjoy the time ahead. On the other hand when they come out of a rotten stinky hole I've seen people blame the dog and are adimant something is at home and question the dogs ability that is what gets me in fact I hate it.

[Rabbit Hunter 6,608]

Despite what we think we smell and what an earth looks like, a terrier knows the difference between scent of an animal been and gone and a live animal still moving and breathing within the earth. My eldest dog is a sure marker on a lead, Ive been to numerous earths with him that are kicked out and stink to high heavens and hes said 'no'. And then other lads have said theres gotta be one in. Let their dogs run through and sure enough they declare it empty. The difference then being if we'd took notice of the first dog we'd have been away leaving the earth undisturbed but because of the doubt the second dog has filled the earth with dog scent and will probably keep the usual occupants away for a while.

[foxdropper 17,092]

By your own admission Neil you state you don't egg a dog on and I'm in full agreement but then you state you want a dog to run a big place just in case.IMO this would only happen if the dog ,whether pup or not had winded something in as I state again I've yet to own a dog that will run anything through without the usual pull on the lead .I've seen dogs in the past that will do it but I soon distanced myself due to their owners stupid geeing up .Some hunt terriers as stated earlier become "BOX BOUND "and know nothing else other than out the box and on and can fall short when in other company .Different folk ,different strokes that's all .

[foxdropper 17,092]

Despite what we think we smell and what an earth looks like, a terrier knows the difference between scent of an animal been and gone and a live animal still moving and breathing within the earth. My eldest dog is a sure marker on a lead, Ive been to numerous earths with him that are kicked out and stink to high heavens and hes said 'no'. And then other lads have said theres gotta be one in. Let their dogs run through and sure enough they declare it empty. The difference then being if we'd took notice of the first dog we'd have been away leaving the earth undisturbed but because of the doubt the second dog has filled the earth with dog scent and will probably keep the usual occupants away for a while.

Like that mate ,sensible post .

[Lenmcharristar 9,180]

Despite what we think we smell and what an earth looks like, a terrier knows the difference between scent of an animal been and gone and a live animal still moving and breathing within the earth. My eldest dog is a sure marker on a lead, Ive been to numerous earths with him that are kicked out and stink to high heavens and hes said 'no'. And then other lads have said theres gotta be one in. Let their dogs run through and sure enough they declare it empty. The difference then being if we'd took notice of the first dog we'd have been away leaving the earth undisturbed but because of the doubt the second dog has filled the earth with dog scent and will probably keep the usual occupants away for a while.

thats what way I like a terrier to work.

[stop.end 4,079]

Despite what we think we smell and what an earth looks like, a terrier knows the difference between scent of an animal been and gone and a live animal still moving and breathing within the earth. My eldest dog is a sure marker on a lead, Ive been to numerous earths with him that are kicked out and stink to high heavens and hes said 'no'. And then other lads have said theres gotta be one in. Let their dogs run through and sure enough they declare it empty. The difference then being if we'd took notice of the first dog we'd have been away leaving the earth undisturbed but because of the doubt the second dog has filled the earth with dog scent and will probably keep the usual occupants away for a while.

Spot on ... and what I would consider a rangey spot is 15 eyes even more.. going from shallow to deep... stretching over a large area...5 eyes may be gleaming ...10 dead.

terrier says no.... walk on... I try same spot month later...completely dead looking no signs at all terrier drops in first hole and speaks 15 mins later far side maybe 30 yards away! is that terrier not to be trusted because he doesn't run dead holes? and is that terrier not to be trusted running rangeys all day and because he DOESNT drop means he doesn't knows his job?

[Lenmcharristar 9,180]

 

Despite what we think we smell and what an earth looks like, a terrier knows the difference between scent of an animal been and gone and a live animal still moving and breathing within the earth. My eldest dog is a sure marker on a lead, Ive been to numerous earths with him that are kicked out and stink to high heavens and hes said 'no'. And then other lads have said theres gotta be one in. Let their dogs run through and sure enough they declare it empty. The difference then being if we'd took notice of the first dog we'd have been away leaving the earth undisturbed but because of the doubt the second dog has filled the earth with dog scent and will probably keep the usual occupants away for a while.

 

Spot on ... and what I would consider a rangey spot is 15 eyes even more.. going from shallow to deep... stretching over a large area...5 eyes may be gleaming ...10 dead.

terrier says no.... walk on... I try same spot month later...completely dead looking no signs at all terrier drops in first hole and speaks 15 mins later far side maybe 30 yards away! is that terrier not to be trusted because he doesn't run dead holes? and is that terrier not to be trusted running rangeys all day and because he DOESNT drop means he doesn't knows his job?

that to me is just a typical working terrier, experience gets it to this point

[jiggy 3,207]

I like to look at an earth similiar to a chimney if you call to someones house and the fires lit you know their home you see smoke. Similar at an earth every entrance in a big 20 hole earth might not have scent in it with updrafts and downdrafts drifting scent different directions but you can be sure that if that game is lying in there even for a week without surfacing then it has to be able to breath regalurly then one of those tubes and entrances is feeding it oxygen even if its a dead unused tube. If air is getting in to circulate, scent is getting out if not the game would die. In theory if the dog sticks his head in 10 entrances he mightned get scent but if he does all 20 it will be coming out of one of them and it might not even be a tube the game travelled but thats why dogs mark dead looking entrances. If a dog wants to run a tube ive no problem letting it but if he doesnt ive no problem either if he hasnt LET ME DOWN BEFORE. A good dog is a good dog whatever way he goes about his job. Equally a bad one is a bad one there is plenty of gamey hard terriers that will run earths all day but wouldnt smell a pan of rashers which would you prefer a dog with a good nose or a lunatic that will run around until it bumps into something on the corridor?

Edited September 28, 2016 by jiggy