Draw dogs

[sounder79 80]

Yeah well since I know nothing I'll say no more just to keep you happy. If you read the thread i started correctly, I stated I was too young to know about certain lines back in the day, but I knew enough to prove men twice maybe 3 times the age of me now wrong!!!!! Men that were into it and thought they knew it all. Plus north Armagh region kept producing the highest quality off just for u ( draw/strong/heavy/big) dogs all down the years to date. So use what words you want too. I know by looking and watching a dog work..... not reading a thread on my iPhone like you do on here. How your imagination must wonder. Ha ha ha ha f::king ha ha

oh you proved them all wrong !! well done!! what do ya want a medal? your only listening to stories boy,and go away with your north armagh,the wheaten is a munster dog ya gobshite

[mudd dog 128]

Your the gobshite since you can't read properly. Just read what I wrote again. I wasn't just speaking about a wheaten in particular... I was talking about all big dogs down the years from that area. Oh and by the way it was brenner that brought that topic back up again, NOT ME. So Bye bye : )))

Edited October 10, 2011 by mudd dog

[VOON 1,313]

im guessing that these trials played a part in providing good, hard tested blood as a base for some of the terriers and lurchers in are fields today.

 

I don't know about the lurchers, but the trials were not a good test of a sounder (baying terrier)

Terriers were given certificates at trials that we knew the same dogs were useless in the country.

 

For the strong dogs, Some shores were so big that a sheepdog could get up them.

They never had the complex nature or corners that a natural earth had.

At best they were a minimum test that a dog had technique.

i.e strength,silence,drive.

But the real test of strong dogs was in the pit.

 

This required a different type of strong dog.

I heard of a good staff that had proven himself where it counted.

I believe this dog ended up in America.

When he saw quarry for the first time, he tried to ride it.

I am not sure if a pit dog is the best bullX to bring into a terrier line.

 

IMO the trials were the best idea at that time to see a number of working terriers perform

in one place. No better idea came along to replace them.

 

What do we have today, Working Terrier Shows. Not a good alternative really.

 

Best to get out in the country.

JMO

 

 

Why so? Which bullX would you think is the best to bring in to a terrier line?

 

Voon

 

Voon,

Today I believe there is very little need to bring Bullx into any terrier line. (there is enough there already)

It was different before the Black smooth dogs appeared on the scene.

The period before the trials were disbanded,I think every kennel had some Bull brought into it.

The working Jack Russels I knew where on the small, light side. Ugly little feckers bow legged, prick ears, fox type jaws.

Some of the Bullx dogs I saw work were half or quarter crosses. This increased head size, bone, jaw strength, etc.

The difficulty was keeping the size down.

To answer your question, in my opinion the choice would be dictated by size,form and temperament.

Size and form; would go hand in hand. The picture below would be my preference.

Below 25lb or from a line that would include smaller staffs.

Temperament; A dog that would be useful in the country.(This would rule out a pit dog)

A dog that would walk along with other terriers. If it could use its nose and mark an earth, great.

As a pup if it showed any inclination to work cover, better again. An intelligent dog.

The red dog below was a half cross, the white dog was a quarter.

 

Draw dogs were used because the sounders were of the baying type, before locators.

When you broke through, the sounder was lifted. Tongs or a draw dog were used to bag the quarry.

 

ATB

P3D

 

Alrite P3D,

 

Seen a few staff X and English Bull X's work, Most of the lads down my way would have preferred to cross the English bull back in to terriers, had a few terriers like the white dog in the pic you posted, so i've had had a liking for that type of dog, wouldnt mind a good team of russells. Most of the russells, i see about at the minute just seem to be White lakeland/Parsons and the one's i've seen are mostly hard and work the same as a Lakeland seem to be missing a little bit of cuteness the russells had. I was thinking of crossing a bullX back to mate's russell who does the job, but could do with a little more size as there doesn't seem to be a whole lot of good russells about, i just think its a good starting point and you know what you have if you test them, instead of doing the country looking for a good russell.

 

Voon

[p3d 879]

im guessing that these trials played a part in providing good, hard tested blood as a base for some of the terriers and lurchers in are fields today.

 

I don't know about the lurchers, but the trials were not a good test of a sounder (baying terrier)

Terriers were given certificates at trials that we knew the same dogs were useless in the country.

 

For the strong dogs, Some shores were so big that a sheepdog could get up them.

They never had the complex nature or corners that a natural earth had.

At best they were a minimum test that a dog had technique.

i.e strength,silence,drive.

But the real test of strong dogs was in the pit.

 

This required a different type of strong dog.

I heard of a good staff that had proven himself where it counted.

I believe this dog ended up in America.

When he saw quarry for the first time, he tried to ride it.

I am not sure if a pit dog is the best bullX to bring into a terrier line.

 

IMO the trials were the best idea at that time to see a number of working terriers perform

in one place. No better idea came along to replace them.

 

What do we have today, Working Terrier Shows. Not a good alternative really.

 

Best to get out in the country.

JMO

 

 

Why so? Which bullX would you think is the best to bring in to a terrier line?

 

Voon

 

Voon,

Today I believe there is very little need to bring Bullx into any terrier line. (there is enough there already)

It was different before the Black smooth dogs appeared on the scene.

The period before the trials were disbanded,I think every kennel had some Bull brought into it.

The working Jack Russels I knew where on the small, light side. Ugly little feckers bow legged, prick ears, fox type jaws.

Some of the Bullx dogs I saw work were half or quarter crosses. This increased head size, bone, jaw strength, etc.

The difficulty was keeping the size down.

To answer your question, in my opinion the choice would be dictated by size,form and temperament.

Size and form; would go hand in hand. The picture below would be my preference.

Below 25lb or from a line that would include smaller staffs.

Temperament; A dog that would be useful in the country.(This would rule out a pit dog)

A dog that would walk along with other terriers. If it could use its nose and mark an earth, great.

As a pup if it showed any inclination to work cover, better again. An intelligent dog.

The red dog below was a half cross, the white dog was a quarter.

 

Draw dogs were used because the sounders were of the baying type, before locators.

When you broke through, the sounder was lifted. Tongs or a draw dog were used to bag the quarry.

 

ATB

P3D

 

Alrite P3D,

 

Seen a few staff X and English Bull X's work, Most of the lads down my way would have preferred to cross the English bull back in to terriers, had a few terriers like the white dog in the pic you posted, so i've had had a liking for that type of dog, wouldnt mind a good team of russells. Most of the russells, i see about at the minute just seem to be White lakeland/Parsons and the one's i've seen are mostly hard and work the same as a Lakeland seem to be missing a little bit of cuteness the russells had. I was thinking of crossing a bullX back to mate's russell who does the job, but could do with a little more size as there doesn't seem to be a whole lot of good russells about, i just think its a good starting point and you know what you have if you test them, instead of doing the country looking for a good russell.

 

Voon

 

If you could find the right Bull terrier of either type (Staff or EBT), you would be very lucky today.

There are white lines of terrier still around Southern ireland which have all the attributes of the old BullX Russell.

Once you see them you would never go for a white lakeland/Parson again.

The trouble is you or I can not get them. There is a long waiting list and any money will not get these pups.

Best of luck with your breeding, They are fantastic dogs when they come right.

 

 

 

[VOON 1,313]

im guessing that these trials played a part in providing good, hard tested blood as a base for some of the terriers and lurchers in are fields today.

 

I don't know about the lurchers, but the trials were not a good test of a sounder (baying terrier)

Terriers were given certificates at trials that we knew the same dogs were useless in the country.

 

For the strong dogs, Some shores were so big that a sheepdog could get up them.

They never had the complex nature or corners that a natural earth had.

At best they were a minimum test that a dog had technique.

i.e strength,silence,drive.

But the real test of strong dogs was in the pit.

 

This required a different type of strong dog.

I heard of a good staff that had proven himself where it counted.

I believe this dog ended up in America.

When he saw quarry for the first time, he tried to ride it.

I am not sure if a pit dog is the best bullX to bring into a terrier line.

 

IMO the trials were the best idea at that time to see a number of working terriers perform

in one place. No better idea came along to replace them.

 

What do we have today, Working Terrier Shows. Not a good alternative really.

 

Best to get out in the country.

JMO

 

 

Why so? Which bullX would you think is the best to bring in to a terrier line?

 

Voon

 

Voon,

Today I believe there is very little need to bring Bullx into any terrier line. (there is enough there already)

It was different before the Black smooth dogs appeared on the scene.

The period before the trials were disbanded,I think every kennel had some Bull brought into it.

The working Jack Russels I knew where on the small, light side. Ugly little feckers bow legged, prick ears, fox type jaws.

Some of the Bullx dogs I saw work were half or quarter crosses. This increased head size, bone, jaw strength, etc.

The difficulty was keeping the size down.

To answer your question, in my opinion the choice would be dictated by size,form and temperament.

Size and form; would go hand in hand. The picture below would be my preference.

Below 25lb or from a line that would include smaller staffs.

Temperament; A dog that would be useful in the country.(This would rule out a pit dog)

A dog that would walk along with other terriers. If it could use its nose and mark an earth, great.

As a pup if it showed any inclination to work cover, better again. An intelligent dog.

The red dog below was a half cross, the white dog was a quarter.

 

Draw dogs were used because the sounders were of the baying type, before locators.

When you broke through, the sounder was lifted. Tongs or a draw dog were used to bag the quarry.

 

ATB

P3D

 

Alrite P3D,

 

Seen a few staff X and English Bull X's work, Most of the lads down my way would have preferred to cross the English bull back in to terriers, had a few terriers like the white dog in the pic you posted, so i've had had a liking for that type of dog, wouldnt mind a good team of russells. Most of the russells, i see about at the minute just seem to be White lakeland/Parsons and the one's i've seen are mostly hard and work the same as a Lakeland seem to be missing a little bit of cuteness the russells had. I was thinking of crossing a bullX back to mate's russell who does the job, but could do with a little more size as there doesn't seem to be a whole lot of good russells about, i just think its a good starting point and you know what you have if you test them, instead of doing the country looking for a good russell.

 

Voon

 

If you could find the right Bull terrier of either type (Staff or EBT), you would be very lucky today.

There are white lines of terrier still around Southern ireland which have all the attributes of the old BullX Russell.

Once you see them you would never go for a white lakeland/Parson again.

The trouble is you or I can not get them. There is a long waiting list and any money will not get these pups.

Best of luck with your breeding, They are fantastic dogs when they come right.

 

Agree with you there, maybe i'm reminiscing through rose tinted glasses, but we used to knock some sport out of the aul's lad terriers, he used to think we were fantasing about the foxes we were bolting, till one day we decided to bag one and bring it home to provide "proof of fantasy's", things were going along nicely till we met the gran uncle and his mate with 4 greyhounds apeice that they had in training, and the hounds started doing cartwheels on leads and nearly ate the granuncle..........some craic.........

 

Still think a pitbull in a terrier would be same thing...loads of bull hounds around, that work in the field,

 

Voon

[liamdelaney 2,585]

Laim, 6 minutes is no test for any dog imo.

Believe me Dev it was not as simple as it sounds if it was every dog would qualify.he was doing full battle head on for that time if he stopped at all he was lifted and he also took a lot of punishment.Some dogs like to catch and pull other dogs(the kind i liked)just jumped into the pot and no pulling just fight(a lot of Cuilleog dogs done that and dogs from Laois)they just wanted to fight fight fight so they got a lot of war wounds.Somebody said on here a while ago trial dogs did not have to be fit they most certainly did if he was not fit he would lay back a bit when getting tired and would be lifted.I know plenty of hard dogs stay to ground for hours(had plenty of them)but if he was mixing like that to ground for hours he would be dead(nose gone bottom jaw gone to the bone or else would have to be put down.Ahard dog certainly mixes under ground but not to the same extent as a game dog he will pull back a bit if he is getting ate and wait his chance again a trial dog did not get that luxury.As Jimmy Shop said plenty of people gave there dogs a lot more than six minutes in there own shore.We used to try the dogs that liked to pull in a shore with a very tight bend so when his arse hit the bend it was not easy get around with his mouth full a good few failed.Liam To the people laughing and with the wise cracks these men a lot of them dead and gone were good honest working class people who knew there dogs inside out and bowed to nobody ye are not fit to hold there coat at a dig.

a hard dog and a game dog.do you be in the earth with your dogs liam to see whats happening.

No i dont be in the earth with the dog i am way to big the closest i ever came to that was i worked as a miner many years ago.Now to your question(which is pretty well known by any dog man worth his salt)A hard dog is a terrier which goes to ground any rushes in and mixes although he is getting punishment he still mixes to much for his own good in the long term Now a game dog he is a different breed alltogether like chalk and cheese.A game dog (the good ones)will face any foe and fight him to the death regardless of the pain or the tenacity of his foe if he lost his front legs he will still try to get to his apponent and kill him or die in the process.I hope you are happy with my explanation and i hope in some small way this will help you in your quest to be a terrier man. PS do you have a terrier yourself? If not i would strongly advise you dont go for the game dog they are not for the novice. Yours in sport Liam.

thank you pig im learning more from you every day.keep up the good work.been a novice im not worthy.

yYou are wellcome I take it your not going to show your stock like the rest of the sneers.either.Or do you have a dog of your own?

[Pops 19]

i think anyone that is slagging how another fella works his dog is a friend of the antis, whether he means to be or not he is.

the biggest threat to ALL dogging in the USA are the deer shooters. the vast majority of them sit in trees or heated boxes within 100M of where they parked their truck or SUV. they tote 10 pound rifles w/ 20X scopes that shoot wondermagnum cartridges. they think they are awesome shots because they can hit 4 of 5 shots on a pie tin at 50-100M. they put out piles of corn (maize) starting a week before the season. they gut shoot 3 or 4 for every one they recover. they talk a bunch of nonsense about their woodscraft skills and the spirituality of the hunt. then these same pricks are the first to side w/ the antis when they try to ban dogging (any dogging bear, bobcat, coyote, fox) and claim dogging is "not sporting." even if they don't openly side w/ the antis, the antis will copy the slagging they do on an open website to show non hunting people that "even ethical hunters think dogging is wrong."

you all know as well as i do what use a bunch of tofu brained anti tossers make of this site already. don't give them free ammunition to use against each other.

 

now on the subject of technique. i wouldn't want the eye surgeon working on my kid to be putting his hand down a hole after fox even w/ gloves on. his hands are too valuable for other things. likewise a plumber or carpenter w/ a family to feed is stupid to risk his lively hood if he doesn't absolutely have to. and they have as much moral right as anyone else to keep & work dogs of whatever kind they choose. anyone who thinks their way is the only right way is an anti tool whether they mean to be or not.

 

sidenote: i don't try to legislate the nimrod deershooters away because they have kept me in dogfood for years. also i respect that they have the right to choose how they harvest wildlife. i do strongly resent that they do not give me the same respect.

[danny300 2,240]

what the fcuk is deer shooting in the us got to do with drawing dogs.me and my mate shoot a couple of deer a year and it does not go to the dogs what we cant eat the dogs get, plus why let your kid put his hand in and grab a fox out why dont you do it

[Pops 19]

what the fcuk is deer shooting in the us got to do with drawing dogs.me and my mate shoot a couple of deer a year and it does not go to the dogs what we cant eat the dogs get, plus why let your kid put his hand in and grab a fox out why dont you do it

what it's got to do w/ is that slagging on what someone else does, feeds the antis fires and gives them ammunition for their fight to ban ALL dogging & ALL hunting. and it's got to do with the dumbass mindset that there is only one right way to engage in sport.

if you (general you not anyone in particular) don't like the way someone does their thing then don't do it that way. if you think it's unethical, tell them privately. BUT don't splash shite all over the net for unwanted eyes.

[Bryan 1,361]

 

now on the subject of technique. i wouldn't want the eye surgeon working on my kid to be putting his hand down a hole after fox even w/ gloves on. his hands are too valuable for other things.

 

If he hasn't got the hand eye co-ordination to scruff a fox maybe he should pack in surgery?

[p3d 879]

im guessing that these trials played a part in providing good, hard tested blood as a base for some of the terriers and lurchers in are fields today.

 

I don't know about the lurchers, but the trials were not a good test of a sounder (baying terrier)

Terriers were given certificates at trials that we knew the same dogs were useless in the country.

 

For the strong dogs, Some shores were so big that a sheepdog could get up them.

They never had the complex nature or corners that a natural earth had.

At best they were a minimum test that a dog had technique.

i.e strength,silence,drive.

But the real test of strong dogs was in the pit.

 

This required a different type of strong dog.

I heard of a good staff that had proven himself where it counted.

I believe this dog ended up in America.

When he saw quarry for the first time, he tried to ride it.

I am not sure if a pit dog is the best bullX to bring into a terrier line.

 

IMO the trials were the best idea at that time to see a number of working terriers perform

in one place. No better idea came along to replace them.

 

What do we have today, Working Terrier Shows. Not a good alternative really.

 

Best to get out in the country.

JMO

 

 

Why so? Which bullX would you think is the best to bring in to a terrier line?

 

Voon

 

Voon,

Today I believe there is very little need to bring Bullx into any terrier line. (there is enough there already)

It was different before the Black smooth dogs appeared on the scene.

The period before the trials were disbanded,I think every kennel had some Bull brought into it.

The working Jack Russels I knew where on the small, light side. Ugly little feckers bow legged, prick ears, fox type jaws.

Some of the Bullx dogs I saw work were half or quarter crosses. This increased head size, bone, jaw strength, etc.

The difficulty was keeping the size down.

To answer your question, in my opinion the choice would be dictated by size,form and temperament.

Size and form; would go hand in hand. The picture below would be my preference.

Below 25lb or from a line that would include smaller staffs.

Temperament; A dog that would be useful in the country.(This would rule out a pit dog)

A dog that would walk along with other terriers. If it could use its nose and mark an earth, great.

As a pup if it showed any inclination to work cover, better again. An intelligent dog.

The red dog below was a half cross, the white dog was a quarter.

 

Draw dogs were used because the sounders were of the baying type, before locators.

When you broke through, the sounder was lifted. Tongs or a draw dog were used to bag the quarry.

 

ATB

P3D

 

Alrite P3D,

 

Seen a few staff X and English Bull X's work, Most of the lads down my way would have preferred to cross the English bull back in to terriers, had a few terriers like the white dog in the pic you posted, so i've had had a liking for that type of dog, wouldnt mind a good team of russells. Most of the russells, i see about at the minute just seem to be White lakeland/Parsons and the one's i've seen are mostly hard and work the same as a Lakeland seem to be missing a little bit of cuteness the russells had. I was thinking of crossing a bullX back to mate's russell who does the job, but could do with a little more size as there doesn't seem to be a whole lot of good russells about, i just think its a good starting point and you know what you have if you test them, instead of doing the country looking for a good russell.

 

Voon

 

If you could find the right Bull terrier of either type (Staff or EBT), you would be very lucky today.

There are white lines of terrier still around Southern ireland which have all the attributes of the old BullX Russell.

Once you see them you would never go for a white lakeland/Parson again.

The trouble is you or I can not get them. There is a long waiting list and any money will not get these pups.

Best of luck with your breeding, They are fantastic dogs when they come right.

 

Agree with you there, maybe i'm reminiscing through rose tinted glasses, but we used to knock some sport out of the aul's lad terriers, he used to think we were fantasing about the foxes we were bolting, till one day we decided to bag one and bring it home to provide "proof of fantasy's", things were going along nicely till we met the gran uncle and his mate with 4 greyhounds apeice that they had in training, and the hounds started doing cartwheels on leads and nearly ate the granuncle..........some craic.........

 

Still think a pitbull in a terrier would be same thing...loads of bull hounds around, that work in the field,

 

Voon

 

Maybe an APBT would be good, I don't have any experience of them, when i write Pit dog I mean a dog that was used in the Pit not the country.

If more guys had the approach that sport and craic were important, we might have less slagging /personal attacks.

I never felt hunting was such a black and white sport. Some guys use baying dogs , some use a hard dog, some a draw dog.

I would like to have them all. IMO if a hunter uses a draw dog it is a version of a tongs, but you have to feed it.

Every man to his own poison.

ATB

[bannerboy 4]

Well said p3d, finally someone with common sense comments

[micheal rennicks 17]

Laim, 6 minutes is no test for any dog imo.

Believe me Dev it was not as simple as it sounds if it was every dog would qualify.he was doing full battle head on for that time if he stopped at all he was lifted and he also took a lot of punishment.Some dogs like to catch and pull other dogs(the kind i liked)just jumped into the pot and no pulling just fight(a lot of Cuilleog dogs done that and dogs from Laois)they just wanted to fight fight fight so they got a lot of war wounds.Somebody said on here a while ago trial dogs did not have to be fit they most certainly did if he was not fit he would lay back a bit when getting tired and would be lifted.I know plenty of hard dogs stay to ground for hours(had plenty of them)but if he was mixing like that to ground for hours he would be dead(nose gone bottom jaw gone to the bone or else would have to be put down.Ahard dog certainly mixes under ground but not to the same extent as a game dog he will pull back a bit if he is getting ate and wait his chance again a trial dog did not get that luxury.As Jimmy Shop said plenty of people gave there dogs a lot more than six minutes in there own shore.We used to try the dogs that liked to pull in a shore with a very tight bend so when his arse hit the bend it was not easy get around with his mouth full a good few failed.Liam To the people laughing and with the wise cracks these men a lot of them dead and gone were good honest working class people who knew there dogs inside out and bowed to nobody ye are not fit to hold there coat at a dig.

a hard dog and a game dog.do you be in the earth with your dogs liam to see whats happening.

No i dont be in the earth with the dog i am way to big the closest i ever came to that was i worked as a miner many years ago.Now to your question(which is pretty well known by any dog man worth his salt)A hard dog is a terrier which goes to ground any rushes in and mixes although he is getting punishment he still mixes to much for his own good in the long term Now a game dog he is a different breed alltogether like chalk and cheese.A game dog (the good ones)will face any foe and fight him to the death regardless of the pain or the tenacity of his foe if he lost his front legs he will still try to get to his apponent and kill him or die in the process.I hope you are happy with my explanation and i hope in some small way this will help you in your quest to be a terrier man. PS do you have a terrier yourself? If not i would strongly advise you dont go for the game dog they are not for the novice. Yours in sport Liam.

thank you pig im learning more from you every day.keep up the good work.been a novice im not worthy.

yYou are wellcome I take it your not going to show your stock like the rest of the sneers.either.Or do you have a dog of your own?

no just empty kennels waiting for the right stuff maybe you no where i could get decent hard/game ehh sounder or maybe ehhh i dont know dog.

[liamdelaney 2,585]

Laim, 6 minutes is no test for any dog imo.

Believe me Dev it was not as simple as it sounds if it was every dog would qualify.he was doing full battle head on for that time if he stopped at all he was lifted and he also took a lot of punishment.Some dogs like to catch and pull other dogs(the kind i liked)just jumped into the pot and no pulling just fight(a lot of Cuilleog dogs done that and dogs from Laois)they just wanted to fight fight fight so they got a lot of war wounds.Somebody said on here a while ago trial dogs did not have to be fit they most certainly did if he was not fit he would lay back a bit when getting tired and would be lifted.I know plenty of hard dogs stay to ground for hours(had plenty of them)but if he was mixing like that to ground for hours he would be dead(nose gone bottom jaw gone to the bone or else would have to be put down.Ahard dog certainly mixes under ground but not to the same extent as a game dog he will pull back a bit if he is getting ate and wait his chance again a trial dog did not get that luxury.As Jimmy Shop said plenty of people gave there dogs a lot more than six minutes in there own shore.We used to try the dogs that liked to pull in a shore with a very tight bend so when his arse hit the bend it was not easy get around with his mouth full a good few failed.Liam To the people laughing and with the wise cracks these men a lot of them dead and gone were good honest working class people who knew there dogs inside out and bowed to nobody ye are not fit to hold there coat at a dig.

a hard dog and a game dog.do you be in the earth with your dogs liam to see whats happening.

No i dont be in the earth with the dog i am way to big the closest i ever came to that was i worked as a miner many years ago.Now to your question(which is pretty well known by any dog man worth his salt)A hard dog is a terrier which goes to ground any rushes in and mixes although he is getting punishment he still mixes to much for his own good in the long term Now a game dog he is a different breed alltogether like chalk and cheese.A game dog (the good ones)will face any foe and fight him to the death regardless of the pain or the tenacity of his foe if he lost his front legs he will still try to get to his apponent and kill him or die in the process.I hope you are happy with my explanation and i hope in some small way this will help you in your quest to be a terrier man. PS do you have a terrier yourself? If not i would strongly advise you dont go for the game dog they are not for the novice. Yours in sport Liam.

thank you pig im learning more from you every day.keep up the good work.been a novice im not worthy.

yYou are wellcome I take it your not going to show your stock like the rest of the sneers.either.Or do you have a dog of your own?

no just empty kennels waiting for the right stuff maybe you no where i could get decent hard/game ehh sounder or maybe ehhh i dont know dog.

Edited October 14, 2011 by liamdelaney

[liamdelaney 2,585]

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