Thats were i have a problem,"they have saved you hours and hours of time",if saving time on a dogs education is better served by zapping it into education then id not own dogs,id rather take the longer route,the old school pathway into dog training,hours and hours of patience instilled into the mutts education process,lessons that may test the dog and owner,lessons that the owner best learns from failure and not electricity.Some dogs are better suited to shock,many owners find it suitable to cover their inadequate training ability by resorting to zap and obey,before lets learn the fundamentals