Thanks for the advice guys, I'll check those out and p.m. you back. Cheers. One point. I seem to have caused some agg. How can we be responsible to live targets if we can't practice? That was the point of my question. I am not (no one is ) a god of shooting so we all need to keep our eye in with some target shooting, be it cans, stones. apples, paper, knock-down, WHO CARES?? Be nice please folks, life's too short!!