Jota

[gnasher16 31,177]

For what its worth,i totally agree with Wilf we live in a society where victimhood is encouraged......demanded even.

Especially in these internet days people are all too ready to jump in and be a victim on someone elses behalf if they feel the person is not receiving the correct sympathy,what ever happened to quietly going off and dealing with grief alone.

And nasty chants at the footie i wouldnt book anywhere near as bad as some of these attention seeking social media posts you see even from people who knew the person,they all become a bit distasteful in my opinion.

[Astanley 11,628]

This may be a bit long winded but I thought I'd get my say in now so I don't have to get into arguments later ,in an ideal world the new season would start with some shows of respect ,the family would be left alone to mourn in peace ,and a good player would be remembered fondly by fans of the club's he played for ..in the real world a very tiny but very vocal minority will kick up a song and dance about every perceived lack of sack cloth and ashes ,every social media post that isn't sufficiently reverential, the main stream media will stoke the fire by treating Liverpool like a poor oppressed people ,people will get fed up and kick back with the "always a victim" shout ,then it will get messy and nasty with lots of people who started off in agreement shouting vile things at each other ,meanwhile two young men are still dead ,the family will always mourn them and this old man is wondering what the duck is wrong with people ! People who can seem normal ,act normal and reasonable until they see a fu cking keyboard .

[eastcoast 4,464]

22 hours ago, jukel123 said:

Liverpool supporters had better be prepared for tragedy chanters goading them after the lads death.

I'm 100% against the new free speech law masquerading as "hate law".

 But supporters who tragedy chant should be identified and horse whipped. Insensitive, evil_ minded scumbags.

In 2016 Newcastle fans joined in with YNWA at Anfield out of respect to the Hillsborough victims. A few seasons ago they joined in at St. James' Park following the death of Atsu. Our 1st home game is against Liverpool and fans are being urged to do the same. This time it may be a little contrived as fans are being asked to do it, but I have no doubt it would have happened anyway. This from the most disrespected and often despised section of society in modern Britain, disrespected and despised by modern politicians and MSM for many years. That part of society being white working class men. Just don't ask to them to take the knee, horrible c**ts that they are. 

[jukel123 9,226]

 I think we've moved on from the deceased footballer. RIP Mr Jota.

In the 1970s there existed a group called The Paedophile Information Exchange Group. They would openly sit on platforms arguing that the age of child consent should be lowered. They affiliated with The National Council for Civil Liberties. Jack Dromey and his wife Labour MP  Harriet Harman were part of the latter group and never said a dickie bird about them at the time.. There was a huge freedom of speech debate and Roger Scruton a right wing philosophy academic said some things are just so f****n awful they should not be debated. No platform for the b*****ds. He was one of the few to stand up and be counted Most bleated about free speech and supported the view that PIE were  only debating the concept of raping children and not actually abusing them en masse. This proved to be untrue as many were subsequently convicted of horrendous crimes against children.

Free speech is a fantastic stance to take. Philosophically we should all be allowed to say what we want. But unfortunately in the real world its not a one size fits all solution. And in any case it only applies to certain groups. Since the start of the Ukraine war, we are not allowed to hear the Russian  TV station which broadcast to the UK . It was immediately taken off air. Mysterious forces censored any political comment from Russia. Too dangerous for us plebs to hear. We must only hear the 'truth' from the press and media barons who are part of the rich elite that rule the planet.

So back to tragedy chanting. People who chant about the Munich air disaster and Hillsborough and hiss when Tottenham come to town should not be defended by decent people. They are scum and should be horse whipped by my good self. I offer this service free of charge. No court appearances, no criminal record, no expensive incarceration at taxpayers' expense. What"s wrong with that?

When I was a teenager we used to fight other teenagers who supported different clubs. We would ambush them and vice versa. Most of it consisted of running after or being pursued by other supporters. We were all willing participants. And it was mostly symbolic chimp stuff. We would claim scarves as trophies and exaggerate how tough we were and how soft opposing supporters were. Incidentally West Ham were gobby and universally soft. That is a joke and I'm allowed to state it because of free speech .We did'nt tragedy chant . It was, instinctively  beneath us. The violence was up front take it or leave it.

But if you are taking your grandchildren to a match as I did 10 years back and opposing supporters are chanting their glee at the Munich disaster then they should not be defended under free speech law. They are scum and should be horse whipped. My grand kids were 9 and 10 at the time and they were upset and scared. They should be able to go to a match and enjoy the experience. They are entitled to a childhood. I was attending Old Trafford from 7 onwards. Adult in those days looked after us and let us pass through to the front. It was like the whole crowd were extended family. That sense of community has gone now. Instead people defend the indefensible.

Its the same with the grooming scandal. Various cops and social workers were quoted in official minutes of meetings criticising the children for being architects of their own abuse. People saw the children in cars with Pakistani men and said f**k all. Whole communities said nothing in case they offended the culture of the perpetrators. After all we live a "free" society. Nah, some things are so scummy that the people who do or say these unspeakable things should be punished. I  am ready with my horse whip.

 

 

 

Edited July 7 by jukel123

[WILF 49,522]

37 minutes ago, jukel123 said:

 I think we've moved on from the deceased footballer. RIP Mr Jota.

In the 1970s there existed a group called The Paedophile Information Exchange Group. They would openly sit on platforms arguing that the age of child consent should be lowered. They affiliated with The National Council for Civil Liberties. Jack Dromey and his wife Labour MP  Harriet Harman were part of the latter group and never said a dickie bird about them at the time.. There was a huge freedom of speech debate and Roger Scruton a right wing philosophy academic said some things are just so f****n awful they should not be debated. No platform for the b*****ds. He was one of the few to stand up and be counted Most bleated about free speech and supported the view that PIE were  only debating the concept of raping children and not actually abusing them en masse. This proved to be untrue as many were subsequently convicted of horrendous crimes against children.

Free speech is a fantastic stance to take. Philosophically we should all be allowed to say what we want. But unfortunately in the real world its not a one size fits all solution. And in any case it only applies to certain groups. Since the start of the Ukraine war, we are not allowed to hear the Russian  TV station which broadcast to the UK . It was immediately taken off air. Mysterious forces censored any political comment from Russia. Too dangerous for us plebs to hear. We must only hear the 'truth' from the press and media barons who are part of the rich elite that rule the planet.

So back to tragedy chanting. People who chant about the Munich air disaster and Hillsborough and hiss when Tottenham come to town should not be defended by decent people. They are scum and should be horse whipped by my good self. I offer this service free of charge. No court appearances, no criminal record, no expensive incarceration at taxpayers' expense. What"s wrong with that?

When I was a teenager we used to fight other teenagers who supported different clubs. We would ambush them and vice versa. Most of it consisted of running after or being pursued by other supporters. We were all willing participants. And it was mostly symbolic chimp stuff. We would claim scarves as trophies and exaggerate how tough we were and how soft opposing supporters were. Incidentally West Ham were gobby and universally soft. That is a joke and I'm allowed to state it because of free speech .We did'nt tragedy chant . It was, instinctively  beneath us. The violence was up front take it or leave it.

But if you are taking your grandchildren to a match as I did 10 years back and opposing supporters are chanting their glee at the Munich disaster then they should not be defended under free speech law. They are scum and should be horse whipped. My grand kids were 9 and 10 at the time and they were upset and scared. They should be able to go to a match and enjoy the experience. They are entitled to a childhood. I was attending Old Trafford from 7 onwards. Adult in those days looked after us and let us pass through to the front. It was like the whole crowd were extended family. That sense of community has gone now. Instead people defend the indefensible.

Its the same with the grooming scandal. Various cops and social workers were quoted in official minutes of meetings criticising the children for being architects of their own abuse. People saw the children in cars with Pakistani men and said f**k all. Whole communities said nothing in case they offended the culture of the perpetrators. After all we live a "free" society. Nah, some things are so scummy that the people who do or say these unspeakable things should be punished. I  am ready with my horse whip.

 

 

 

So what I got from that is, people shouldn’t be allowed to talk about things you don’t think they should talk about BUT they should talk about things that you do think they should talk about……is that about the strength of it ? 
 

 

Edited July 7 by WILF

[FLATTOP 5,053]

7 hours ago, Bosun11 said:

There was a lurcherman singing at his funeral, and for a brief moment I wondered why, but then I realised the love Wolves fans had for him, and it all made sense....

That’s Robert Plant isn’t it Lifelong Wolves fan.

[WILF 49,522]

59 minutes ago, eastcoast said:

In 2016 Newcastle fans joined in with YNWA at Anfield out of respect to the Hillsborough victims. A few seasons ago they joined in at St. James' Park following the death of Atsu. Our 1st home game is against Liverpool and fans are being urged to do the same. This time it may be a little contrived as fans are being asked to do it, but I have no doubt it would have happened anyway. This from the most disrespected and often despised section of society in modern Britain, disrespected and despised by modern politicians and MSM for many years. That part of society being white working class men. Just don't ask to them to take the knee, horrible c**ts that they are. 

Certain things just “are”……like groups of lads, be that at football or not, knowing when & when not to say something howling (remember gallows humour anyone ?) and when it’s time to be a proper chap……there’s a time and a place, we don’t have to walk round beating ourselves with chains and saying endless Mia culpas because Manchester Utds pilots are about as good at finding a runway as Hoijland is at finding the back of the net ! 
That’s a joke by the way but I’m not insisting anyone laugh, feel free to not laugh…..see, that’s how it works ! 

Edited July 7 by WILF

[mushroom 13,929]

On 03/07/2025 at 12:28, gnasher16 said:

Terrible news,very sad for all concerned.

It has to be said though how many more times are we going to hear all this " tyre blow out " protective excuse for rich young men in the spotlight losing control of high powered sports cars in the dead of night.

That road is notorious for accidents mate.

[jukel123 9,226]

4 minutes ago, WILF said:

Certain things just “are”……like groups of lads, be that at football or not, knowing when & when not to say something howling (remember gallows humour anyone ?) and when it’s time to be a proper chap……there’s a time and a place, we don’t have walk round beating ourselves with chains and saying endless Mia culpas because Manchester Utds pilots are about as good at finding a runway as Hoijland is at finding the back of the net ! 
That’s a joke by the way but I’m not insisting anyone laugh, feel free to not laugh…..see, that’s how it works ! 

Gallows humour is acceptable amongst consenting adults. Although personally I cannnot handle jokes about gas chambers or starving  children.  Although I know some jews find them hilarious. But as you say I can  choose not to laugh.

I don't think hissing at jews is acceptable or chanting about Munich or Hilsborough. The  audience of such chants are not willing  participants and like it or not the game now includes a much wider audience than working  class men and boys.

[WILF 49,522]

17 minutes ago, jukel123 said:

Gallows humour is acceptable amongst consenting adults. Although personally I cannnot handle jokes about gas chambers or starving  children.  Although I know some jews find them hilarious. But as you say I can  choose not to laugh.

I don't think hissing at jews is acceptable or chanting about Munich or Hilsborough. The  audience of such chants are not willing  participants and like it or not the game now includes a much wider audience than working  class men and boys.

Sounds like I’m being confrontational mate but I’m not, I just genuinely find it a fascinating subject and like you I hold a strong opinion about it.

Theres places you can take kids and family areas in football grounds now and, if people didn’t know already what to expect when rival fans meet, there’s non league. 
 

It’s all just opinions but personally I want to hear everyone, even the ones I don’t agree with or like…..I want them out in the open where I can see them.

You mentioned PIE, well I remember that and I’d rather those people out in the light than tucked away in the shadows……just need people with longer memories dont we as it didn’t seem to stop anyone voting for or employing Dromey or Harman.

They banned a magazine called “Redwatch” which used to, amongst other things, publish personal details of left wing activists…..once they were safe in their anonymity they ran riot and killed the nation ! 

But anyway, I digress (massively !!)……

f***ing hell, when did we all become so sensitive ? 

[jukel123 9,226]

1 hour ago, WILF said:

Sounds like I’m being confrontational mate but I’m not, I just genuinely find it a fascinating subject and like you I hold a strong opinion about it.

Theres places you can take kids and family areas in football grounds now and, if people didn’t know already what to expect when rival fans meet, there’s non league. 
 

It’s all just opinions but personally I want to hear everyone, even the ones I don’t agree with or like…..I want them out in the open where I can see them.

You mentioned PIE, well I remember that and I’d rather those people out in the light than tucked away in the shadows……just need people with longer memories dont we as it didn’t seem to stop anyone voting for or employing Dromey or Harman.

They banned a magazine called “Redwatch” which used to, amongst other things, publish personal details of left wing activists…..once they were safe in their anonymity they ran riot and killed the nation ! 

But anyway, I digress (massively !!)……

f***ing hell, when did we all become so sensitive ? 

Wilf I expect you to be confrontational..its who you are. What you read is what you get you shoot from the hip and   like me you don't bear grudges. It's always onto the next thread  and start afresh. It's not that important  at the end of the day.

I accept I've been a tad precious and hypocritical in this thread but I don't accept the northern victim accusation.  Have you seen first hand the shitholes of the North? Some areas have a life expectancy many  years less than some areas of the south. That's a result of government underfunding going back decades. Tbh, I think you play the victim card when you actually have a very pleasant, stress free life. Hey ho. It's not a big deal.

 

Edited July 7 by jukel123

[gnasher16 31,177]

4 hours ago, jukel123 said:

 

We did'nt tragedy chant . It was, instinctively  beneath us. 

 

With all due respect that is a complete load of ol pony !......are you seriously trying to pretend that " tragedy chanting " if you want to call it that wasnt as bad in the 70's/80's ?.....it was much worse than it is today.

Apart from the basic Hillsborough/Heysel/Bradford/Munich stuff do you not remember the " Spurs are on their way to Belsen ".....or the " Harry Roberts is our friend " ....or " One Harold Shipman ,we give him thanks for killing the Mancs " or " the Oxford player i forget his name " Whos that wrapped around a lamp post,who's that bleeding from his head "........i remember my Hammers singing about the Millwall lad who got chucked under a train by West Ham fans " We've got brains we throw Millwall under trains " then when they got their revenge and killed little Terry Burns in the mid 80's they returned it with the Villers Street song every time we met......right up to more recent times Millwall singing about our Jack Collisons dad getting killed in a bike accident the week before the game......likewise the Jack Walker chant of " who's that lying on the carpet,who's that dying on the floor " or the Cisse one " your families at the bottom of the sea " and on and on and on they're just the first ones that came to mind.

And not just tragedies what about the more personal stuff like when United started the songs about Wenger being a paedophile....all the songs directed at Addebayor or the Shaun Wright Philips " whos your real dad "

I think its generally accepted amongst active week to week football lads that however grotesque or unpleasant some of it can be, the inside of a football ground is still quite often a welcome relief from all the po faced self righteous monginess of political correctness !......When its over analysed terrace humour always has and always will be totally unacceptable outside of a football stadium....everyone gets it......i remember when wheelchair areas were first introduced down West Ham we started singing " Sit down if you cant stand up " to the disabled lot and they loved it they thought it was hilarious as they know the score.....but say it outside the ground in a normal scenario and someone would iron you right out.

Be it now or the old days young lads learn a lot about life and having a thick skin inside football grounds.....if you want to be all liberal and mincey then go and sit on Henman Hill cheering Tiger Tim on !

Edited July 7 by gnasher16

[gnasher16 31,177]

4 hours ago, mushroom said:

That road is notorious for accidents mate.

Is it really.....im presuming its a fast road would it be busy at that time of the morning ?

Id imagine that motor was fitted with a black box or Edr so shouldnt be too difficult to suss what happened....id be amazed if speed wasnt a major factor though.

Edited July 7 by gnasher16

[jukel123 9,226]

11 hours ago, gnasher16 said:

With all due respect that is a complete load of ol pony !......are you seriously trying to pretend that " tragedy chanting " if you want to call it that wasnt as bad in the 70's/80's ?.....it was much worse than it is today.

Apart from the basic Hillsborough/Heysel/Bradford/Munich stuff do you not remember the " Spurs are on their way to Belsen ".....or the " Harry Roberts is our friend " ....or " One Harold Shipman ,we give him thanks for killing the Mancs " or " the Oxford player i forget his name " Whos that wrapped around a lamp post,who's that bleeding from his head "........i remember my Hammers singing about the Millwall lad who got chucked under a train by West Ham fans " We've got brains we throw Millwall under trains " then when they got their revenge and killed little Terry Burns in the mid 80's they returned it with the Villers Street song every time we met......right up to more recent times Millwall singing about our Jack Collisons dad getting killed in a bike accident the week before the game......likewise the Jack Walker chant of " who's that lying on the carpet,who's that dying on the floor " or the Cisse one " your families at the bottom of the sea " and on and on and on they're just the first ones that came to mind.

And not just tragedies what about the more personal stuff like when United started the songs about Wenger being a paedophile....all the songs directed at Addebayor or the Shaun Wright Philips " whos your real dad "

I think its generally accepted amongst active week to week football lads that however grotesque or unpleasant some of it can be, the inside of a football ground is still quite often a welcome relief from all the po faced self righteous monginess of political correctness !......When its over analysed terrace humour always has and always will be totally unacceptable outside of a football stadium....everyone gets it......i remember when wheelchair areas were first introduced down West Ham we started singing " Sit down if you cant stand up " to the disabled lot and they loved it they thought it was hilarious as they know the score.....but say it outside the ground in a normal scenario and someone would iron you right out.

Be it now or the old days young lads learn a lot about life and having a thick skin inside football grounds.....if you want to be all liberal and mincey then go and sit on Henman Hill cheering Tiger Tim on !

You make a fair point. But I'm not pretending anything. I was a teenager 62 years back and times were simpler and more  naive. Better? More civilised?There was no tragedy chanting back in the day.

Edited July 8 by jukel123

[gnasher16 31,177]

4 hours ago, jukel123 said:

You make a fair point. But I'm not pretending anything. I was a teenager 62 years back and times were simpler and more  naive. Better? More civilised?There was no tragedy chanting back in the day.

My maths aint up to much but i make that a max of 1963 as a 13 year old......so fair do's i didnt book you as old as that hence i said 70's/80's......to my knowledge it was all the very basic " we won the cup " celebratory or supportive type of caper back then.....most of the goading and nasty type stuff started in the 70's im pretty sure it was Leeds who changed the words of that Flowers of Manchester song in the mid 70's you might know better than me.

Im not saying i agree with it all by the way,personally i find it a little bit childish, i dont do devious i actually prefer the more direct " your gonna get your f****n heads kicked in " type of communication for nastiness  .....probably because we never usually had much to celebrate !......but i do accept football grounds were and are often not particularly pleasant places for delicate/fragile types to be.....but should they have to be, not in my opinion no.

Edited July 8 by gnasher16