Sugar Ray Robinson

[inan 841]

 

 

 

 

 

 

marciano was better, but ray was a better boxer, if they met thered be 3 hits and one is the ambulance hitting top speed to save rays life

i wish i could buy what you drink different weights different eras and could marciano catch him i doubt it

he wouldnt need to all he had to do was fight on the defensive, no disrespect to ray, the mans a legend

The only great fighter Marciano fought was Joe Louis and he was well past his best.

Liston, Ali, Foreman,Frazier, Norton, Holmes and even Lenox Lewis would have beat Marciano.

Marciano fought the best around and beat them all,today he would be a light heavy.

He beat Archie moore who was also a great fighter.

He would be a great light heavy, I agree with you on that.

He was a great Heavyweight too,maybe not he very best but certainly great.

 

I reckon today he could have started at super middle and beat the best there right the way up to heavyweight.

 

Marciano turned pro in1947 he scaled 192lbs for that fight.How do you propose to get him down to super middleweight ? Cut off his legs?

[inan 841]

Charlie Burley against Sugar Ray Robinson would have been a fight, unfortunately Burley couldn't get the fight because he refused to take a dive . Due to Burleys honesty he never got to fight for a World Title which was a shame when you look at his record and all the HOF that he beat throughout his career. Back then it wasn't uncommon to fight three nights a week for the boxers then to make a living .

This isn't true. Burley never got a title fight because he was ,black, too good,and his style was not fan friendly,plus for some of his career he was managed by Fritzie Zivic whom he beat but Zivic would not defend his title against him. Burley and Robinson's careers did not overlap by much.

In1940 Burley was the no3 welterweight,1941 no5 Robinson no 1.

By 1942 Burley was rated no 2 at middleweight while Robinson was still a welter.where he would stay for 9 years.

[MickC 1,825]

 

 

 

marciano was better, but ray was a better boxer, if they met thered be 3 hits and one is the ambulance hitting top speed to save rays life

i wish i could buy what you drink different weights different eras and could marciano catch him i doubt it

he wouldnt need to all he had to do was fight on the defensive, no disrespect to ray, the mans a legend

The only great fighter Marciano fought was Joe Louis and he was well past his best.

Liston, Ali, Foreman,Frazier, Norton, Holmes and even Lenox Lewis would have beat Marciano.

It all depends in which era they fought,Marciano was very tough but also the dirtiest Heavyweight Champion in history, he got away with numerous fouls in every fight back in his era,in the modern era he would have been stopped on cuts in a lot of his fights or disqualified for fouls.

[MickC 1,825]

 

Charlie Burley against Sugar Ray Robinson would have been a fight, unfortunately Burley couldn't get the fight because he refused to take a dive . Due to Burleys honesty he never got to fight for a World Title which was a shame when you look at his record and all the HOF that he beat throughout his career. Back then it wasn't uncommon to fight three nights a week for the boxers then to make a living .

 

This isn't true. Burley never got a title fight because he was ,black, too good,and his style was not fan friendly,plus for some of his career he was managed by Fritzie Zivic whom he beat but Zivic would not defend his title against him. Burley and Robinson's careers did not overlap by much.

In1940 Burley was the no3 welterweight,1941 no5 Robinson no 1.

By 1942 Burley was rated no 2 at middleweight while Robinson was still a welter.where he would stay for 9 years.

Robinson was a black World Champion,Burley did not get the Robinson fight because he would not take a dive, Burley fought at all weights to earn a living,but he was a Natural Welterweight.I guess the book must be wrong

then .

Sp

Edited July 18, 2014 by MickC

[neems 2,406]

 

 

 

 

 

 

marciano was better, but ray was a better boxer, if they met thered be 3 hits and one is the ambulance hitting top speed to save rays life

 

i wish i could buy what you drink different weights different eras and could marciano catch him i doubt it

he wouldnt need to all he had to do was fight on the defensive, no disrespect to ray, the mans a legend

The only great fighter Marciano fought was Joe Louis and he was well past his best.

Liston, Ali, Foreman,Frazier, Norton, Holmes and even Lenox Lewis would have beat Marciano.

Marciano fought the best around and beat them all,today he would be a light heavy.

He beat Archie moore who was also a great fighter.

He would be a great light heavy, I agree with you on that.

A prime Marciano could never make light heavy, he was ripped down to his lowest weight whilst champion, anything below 182 would mean amputating a leg.

with modern training,nutrition and day before weigh ins it's perfectly reasonable to say he could very easily have made light heavy,and likely super middle too.

[neems 2,406]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

marciano was better, but ray was a better boxer, if they met thered be 3 hits and one is the ambulance hitting top speed to save rays life

i wish i could buy what you drink different weights different eras and could marciano catch him i doubt it

he wouldnt need to all he had to do was fight on the defensive, no disrespect to ray, the mans a legend

The only great fighter Marciano fought was Joe Louis and he was well past his best.

Liston, Ali, Foreman,Frazier, Norton, Holmes and even Lenox Lewis would have beat Marciano.

Marciano fought the best around and beat them all,today he would be a light heavy.

He beat Archie moore who was also a great fighter.

He would be a great light heavy, I agree with you on that.

He was a great Heavyweight too,maybe not he very best but certainly great.

I reckon today he could have started at super middle and beat the best there right the way up to heavyweight.

he wouldn't be allowed to take the punishment he did back then to wear his opponent down the ref wouldn't risk it in today's game IMO

That would more often than not work in his favour,he could take big shots without reacting,when he knocks his opponents head back and then follows up is when stoppages would happen.

 

as for cuts, modernised gloves give more protection from them,even today we see some quite nasty looking cuts not getting treated too seriously by the doctor who obviously knows better.

[Hareydave 1,214]

if your granny had balls she be your granda plenty ones about never had a glove on them,, ray Robison is where he is in the history books

[gnasher16 31,506]

You cant base an opinion on just reading a book,comparing the different era,s is such a hard thing to do......ive studied Ray Robinson over the years,more through force than choice as my ol fella idolised him when you talk to the older generation who saw him first hand or you watch his fights on film etc.....and then put everything together for me he was far and away the greatest fighter in history.We,re talking about a man who fought at the very highest level through different weight divisions fighting anything up to every fortnight for over 200 fights !!............Compare that recovery/preperation time with today where world champions have 1 or 2 fights per year.....Take training and nutritional advances into account,take into account we dont even have access to many of Robinson,s fights whereas every move a fighter makes today is on film.....Very few knowledgable experienced boxing folk ive ever come across put up much of an argument that Ray Robinson wasnt the greatest fighter to lace a glove.

 

As for Ali/Marciano......what people tend to forget with Ali is probably his greatest asset wasnt his speed and timing it was his durability,he could certainly match Marciano for toughness......all being equal i see Ali beating him 99 times out of 100.

Edited July 19, 2014 by gnasher16

[Plummerterrier 291]

Artuto thunder gatti is the best welterweight for me.

[gnasher16 31,506]

Artuto thunder gatti is the best welterweight for me.

....Huge difference between the best and who your personal favorite is mate.

[Plummerterrier 291]

Haha gatti had the entertainment factor. Boxing s done now there's not many wars cotto Martinez was a decent fight but it happens once every few years. Ufc is where real fights happen

[inan 841]

 

 

Charlie Burley against Sugar Ray Robinson would have been a fight, unfortunately Burley couldn't get the fight because he refused to take a dive . Due to Burleys honesty he never got to fight for a World Title which was a shame when you look at his record and all the HOF that he beat throughout his career. Back then it wasn't uncommon to fight three nights a week for the boxers then to make a living .

This isn't true. Burley never got a title fight because he was ,black, too good,and his style was not fan friendly,plus for some of his career he was managed by Fritzie Zivic whom he beat but Zivic would not defend his title against him. Burley and Robinson's careers did not overlap by much.

In1940 Burley was the no3 welterweight,1941 no5 Robinson no 1.

By 1942 Burley was rated no 2 at middleweight while Robinson was still a welter.where he would stay for 9 years.

Robinson was a black World Champion,Burley did not get the Robinson fight because he would not take a dive, Burley fought at all weights to earn a living,but he was a Natural Welterweight.I guess the book must be wrong

then .

Sp

 

Burley would never have got a title fight with Robinson because by1942 Burley was a middleweight ranked no 2 in that division whilst Robinson was the number 1 contender for the welter title

Burely was a contender for the welter tilte held by his manager Fritzie Zivic whom he had already beaten, that fight was never realistically going to happen.Fritzie having bought his contract to ensure it didn't

 

.By the time Robinson won the welterweight title in1946, Burley was in his last years as a rated fighter at any weight

 

 

You must remember that Burley was nearly 5 years older than Robinson and turned pro in1936, 6 years before Robinson. Burley had 98 fights but only 4 of them were inside the welterweight limit of 147lbs.

Burley never got his deserved ttile chance but Robinson did not duck him,their paths barely overlapped.

 

If you want to point a finger of blame on a champion for not defending against Burley look at the middleweight Zale & welter champions Zivic& Cochrane

 

In1942 Burley was the number 2 contender at160lbs[middleweight]

1943 unranked

1944 number 3

1945 number 2

1946 number 2

 

Tony Zale won united the versions of the middleweight title in1941 when he beat Georgie Abrams.Ten days after this bout something called Pearl Harbour occurred.

 

Zale has one over the weight bout with Billy Conn in 1942 then went in the Navy.

Zale did not fight again until 1946.His title was frozen for the duration on WW2

So you can blame Zale but maybe you should blame WW2 for Burley not getting a title shot?

 

Just don' t blame Ray Robinson.

 

 

ps Please produce a primary source that staes Burley was offered a bribe to lost a title fight to Robinson.

 

NB Neither of the biogrphies Charley Burley & The Black Murderers Row or Charley Burley The Life & Hard Times Of An Uncrowned Champion are primary sources unless accompanied by provenanced references.

[gnasher16 31,506]

Haha gatti had the entertainment factor. Boxing s done now there's not many wars cotto Martinez was a decent fight but it happens once every few years. Ufc is where real fights happen

 

Yes but whats that got to do with Arturo Gatti being the greatest welterweight ever

[gnasher16 31,506]

 

 

 

Charlie Burley against Sugar Ray Robinson would have been a fight, unfortunately Burley couldn't get the fight because he refused to take a dive . Due to Burleys honesty he never got to fight for a World Title which was a shame when you look at his record and all the HOF that he beat throughout his career. Back then it wasn't uncommon to fight three nights a week for the boxers then to make a living .

This isn't true. Burley never got a title fight because he was ,black, too good,and his style was not fan friendly,plus for some of his career he was managed by Fritzie Zivic whom he beat but Zivic would not defend his title against him. Burley and Robinson's careers did not overlap by much.

In1940 Burley was the no3 welterweight,1941 no5 Robinson no 1.

By 1942 Burley was rated no 2 at middleweight while Robinson was still a welter.where he would stay for 9 years.

Robinson was a black World Champion,Burley did not get the Robinson fight because he would not take a dive, Burley fought at all weights to earn a living,but he was a Natural Welterweight.I guess the book must be wrong

then .

Sp

 

Burley would never have got a title fight with Robinson because by1942 Burley was a middleweight ranked no 2 in that division whilst Robinson was the number 1 contender for the welter title

Burely was a contender for the welter tilte held by his manager Fritzie Zivic whom he had already beaten, that fight was never realistically going to happen.Fritzie having bought his contract to ensure it didn't

 

.By the time Robinson won the welterweight title in1946, Burley was in his last years as a rated fighter at any weight

 

 

You must remember that Burley was nearly 5 years older than Robinson and turned pro in1936, 6 years before Robinson. Burley had 98 fights but only 4 of them were inside the welterweight limit of 147lbs.

Burley never got his deserved ttile chance but Robinson did not duck him,their paths barely overlapped.

 

If you want to point a finger of blame on a champion for not defending against Burley look at the middleweight Zale & welter champions Zivic& Cochrane

 

In1942 Burley was the number 2 contender at160lbs[middleweight]

1943 unranked

1944 number 3

1945 number 2

1946 number 2

 

Tony Zale won united the versions of the middleweight title in1941 when he beat Georgie Abrams.Ten days after this bout something called Pearl Harbour occurred.

 

Zale has one over the weight bout with Billy Conn in 1942 then went in the Navy.

Zale did not fight again until 1946.His title was frozen for the duration on WW2

So you can blame Zale but maybe you should blame WW2 for Burley not getting a title shot?

 

Just don' t blame Ray Robinson.

 

 

ps Please produce a primary source that staes Burley was offered a bribe to lost a title fight to Robinson.

 

NB Neither of the biogrphies Charley Burley & The Black Murderers Row or Charley Burley The Life & Hard Times Of An Uncrowned Champion are primary sources unless accompanied by provenanced references.

 

 

wow if thats from knowledge and not book reading thats some cracking information/memory way beyond anything my little brain can keep hold of

 

Another point that makes you realise the worth of Ray Robinson is how in an era of boxing controlled by the Mafia when approached and knocked back they didnt even push it with him they realised just how special he was......even the Mafia didnt want the legacy of Ray Robinson tainted !

[marky b 309]

Here we go again