From Wolf To Dog

[sandymere 8,263]

There’s lots of really good work going on at the moment with regard to where dogs came from and when man and dog formed their shared existents. Geneticists are unveiling new information that may well radically change our knowledge of both dogs and ourselves. Genetic changes are being mapped that show the two species co evolved to adapt to the start of agriculture, no doubt a process that is ongoing with dogs and man being oldest and best friend. There are a couple of areas are of interest at the moment, with one being the battle to find the true wolf ancestors of the dog, ideas vary but the two main ones are that the dominant ancestor became extinct by becoming dogs, see here

http://www.plosgenetics.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pgen.1004093

for more on this.

The other older idea is that there was a number of “domestications” but the main ancestor were the wolves that man first encountered as he left Africa for the middle east with odd additions from various populations muddying the waters since then. I’m not sure about the extinction theory preferring the idea that wolves may have joined humans as camp followers as they left Africa and after a few thousand year of adaption to this lifestyle they were ripe for domestication with the beginnings of agriculture. Basically they became dogs long before they became domesticated. The wolves that didn’t join human bands carried on and remain in their areas and those that did join became isolated from the local population due to the more nomadic nature of the hunter gathers they followed. This isolation would conceivable increase the evolutionary process. Human linked packs would travel through traditional wolf territories but as outsiders would have limited contact and breeding opportunity.

 

The other area is the carbohydrate debate with changes being found in both human and dog genes showing adaption’s to increased carbohydrate used at the time of the beginnings of agriculture, see here

http://phenomena.nationalgeographic.com/2013/01/23/people-and-dogs-a-genetic-love-story/

for more on this. We are taught the simple ideas at school and these stick with us but the information being found has already and may well continue to challenge our long help ideas. It seems dogs have evolved to be dogs and the often heard call that they are wolves and should be treated as such in dietary and behavioural doesn’t make sense. Perhaps it’s time to rethink and start treating them as dogs. They became dogs as that was the form best suited to living and being dogs. So next time someone says they do something because it’s what’s “natural” ask yourself do they mean its natural for a dog or what they imagine would suit that unknown wolf ancestor???

just a thought

[stabba 10,745]

Seems everything about the dog has evolved...cept their teeth. Dogs are predominantly meat eaters despite what is written. Those gnashers are not for eating cereal sorry couldn't resist

[paulus 26]

Seems everything about the dog has evolved...cept their teeth. Dogs are predominantly meat eaters despite what is written. Those gnashers are not for eating cereal sorry couldn't resist

my teeth are evolving after years of eating the mrs cooking

[Malt 379]

Seems everything about the dog has evolved...cept their teeth. Dogs are predominantly meat eaters despite what is written. Those gnashers are not for eating cereal sorry couldn't resist

You ever seen a panda's cainine teeth mate? Theirs weren't originally designed for bamboo either.. Stupid bloody animals!

[dogs-n-natives 1,182]

I think a dog gets a lot more from eating a chunk of animal than just the raw ingredients... they love the act of munching away on it for a while, im sure this goes a long way to allowing the dog to follow its natural eating methods. The bone also keeps the teeth in tip top condition too, you dont get that from much else.. Im not against feeding anything to a dog, I feed tons of leftovers and also get some high protein dry shit from time to time especially to tick them them over the heat of summer...but its too easy to see that plenty of good meat/fat/bone is the best for keeping a hard working dog in top fettle,, even if fed as a bonus to the normal feed, the results are easy to see. You dont get that from most dry foods, though there will be some pretty good ones out there no doubt.

Plus if you keep lurchers, if they are any good, they will keep themselves fed, as well as the rest of your dogs and the family! To me it makes no sense chucking hares and deer into the hedge, killed for the sake of killing. Its the best protein you and the dogs can get.

[sandymere 8,263]

Dog n natives I'd agree meat is a large part but part is the operative word, its about balance and excepting dogs are not wolves any more than I'm a Neanderthal, lol. I will carry genes from northern European Neanderthals and my dogs will carry genes from northern European wolves but we have moved on and our bodies have evolved to suit who we are now not what we where then.

 

Stabba those teeth are designed for meat but as Malt points out evolution is not equal on all parts and Pandas show teeth seem to lag . The teeth of carnivore types that are at the omnivores end of the scale, like dogs and bears, tend to have teeth that can fulfil the mixed diets in comparison to obligate carnivores like cats who's dentition and digestion are less able to deal with this mixed diet.

( just a thought if dogs came to carbs that were cooked they would have less pressure to develop their grinding.)

[Casso 1,261]

I find it hard to conceive and this site is a living testimony to it that the hunt played no part in the evolution of the dog ,

 

If we look at the ancient breeds still working today the saluki primarily an animal that becomes social through the very act of hunting with its owner is like having a telescope to look back many thousands of years to understand how canines become social,

Since up till a hundred or so years ago our main interaction with the dog involved some sort of hunting related issue otter , fox wolf and deer hounds either hunting or killing prey was what the dog was used for ,

 

so for me this whole idea that the original dog was no more then a shit eating four legged parasite around human campsite completely misses the fundemental point of what we know as hunters that to truly have a social canine there has to be a large element of the hunt in the relationship , it's not about food it's about hunting , you can see it in everyday interactions with the mutt , it's what they live for

So called experts can only put their side of the story out because of the mutt they see at home , they missing a huge fundamental part of a dogs nature, they're is no greater servent to assisting man to feed himself and his family and they're trying to tell me he started off eating shit round campsites in that case why wasn't the rat mans best friend.

[riohog 5,938]

who needed who the most;; did dog need man or did man need dog?my guess is dog made the first move ,

[Casso 1,261]

who needed who the most;; did dog need man or did man need dog?my guess is dog made the first move ,

100% behind ya on that one,

[J Darcy 5,871]

My guess is that man captured puppys, and from then onwards things started to fall into place.

 

I really cannot ever see a wild wolf 'coming round the campfire', they are a wild animal and extremely wary of human beings. it is a human's trait to 'gather' animals that he thinks will benefit him, like we have done for thousands of years, horses, poultry, singing birds, cats, dogs, stock even fish......the list is endless.

[Casso 1,261]

My guess is that man captured puppys, and from then onwards things started to fall into place.

 

I really cannot ever see a wild wolf 'coming round the campfire', they are a wild animal and extremely wary of human beings. it is a human's trait to 'gather' animals that he thinks will benefit him, like we have done for thousands of years, horses, poultry, singing birds, cats, dogs, stock even fish......the list is endless.

What you're doing is looking at the wolf of today as believing it's the same animal that the dog begat from, wolves today are remenence of a creature that has been condemned since the very beginning of the written word and a total social f**k up as far as humans go,

 

I watched a documentary years ago about a young female Scandinavian scientist who made contact with wolves whom had never had contact with humans before and the interaction was striking, the pack of wolves showed curiosity not fear , they hung round and enjoyed her company some of the young yearlings even play bowed , so for me it would not have taken a great leap of imagination for some of the clan to go off together hunting or scavenging with humans

Edited May 22, 2014 by Casso

[riohog 5,938]

im sure man did capture pups eventually but that wasn't the first move..

[J Darcy 5,871]

 

My guess is that man captured puppys, and from then onwards things started to fall into place.

 

I really cannot ever see a wild wolf 'coming round the campfire', they are a wild animal and extremely wary of human beings. it is a human's trait to 'gather' animals that he thinks will benefit him, like we have done for thousands of years, horses, poultry, singing birds, cats, dogs, stock even fish......the list is endless.

What you're doing is looking at the wolf of today as believing it's the same animal that the dog begat from, wolves today are remenence of a creature that has been condemned since the very beginning of the written word and a total social f**k up as far as humans go,

 

I watched a documentary years ago about a young female Scandinavian scientist who made contact with wolves whom had never had contact with humans before and the interaction was striking, the pack of wolves showed curiosity not fear , they hung round and enjoyed her company some of the young yearlings even play bowed , so for me it would not have taken a great leap of imagination for some of the clan to go off together hunting or scavenging with humans

 

Casso...As someone who has been involved in wildlife programmes I can safely say that I wouldn't believe an animal/pack filmed was wild...unless i saw it in the flesh. We've each got our own opinions though....

[sandymere 8,263]

Thousands of years of following human packs would alter behaviours.

[sandymere 8,263]

There was a programme on TV recently with wolves interacting with hyenas, North Africa. A large wolf pack scavenged around a village regularly. In less civilised/wild areas where man occurs naturally man and animals have different interactions.