.25 or .22 calibre for a change.

[zini 1,939]

Hi lads,

 

I’m after some information and your thoughts if possible please.

 

After shooting now with the .177 Ultra using a heavy weight .177 Bisley Magnum for 3 or 4 weeks and seeing just how accurate it is for target shooting I am getting lots of kills on rats and corvids but am finding that a large percent even when they have been hit in the brain have either run off a little way or flew some distance (5 to 10 metres) before dying.

 

All the shots on the rats (close range) and most of the shots on the corvids up to say 40, 45 metres have gone straight through the quarry departing some of the pellets kinetic energy but not all.

 

This is ok I suppose if your just want to fill your game bag with food or take photos for the forum, but as I am filming a new DVD for a audience who demands humane quick kills, I like to see the shot on camera taken and then the rat role over or the bird just fall out the tree etc (like what happened with my .22 r10) without the 2 or 3 second jumping about or the 5 to 10 metres flight time before the bird nose dives into the ground off camera as it doesn’t make for good footage.

 

This is something that I have only just started to see more with the smaller calibre and would like to know whether others have noticed this at all with the smaller calibre?

 

Please don’t get me wrong I have had some instantaneous kills with the .177 at closer ranges on rats etc but more seem to be at the longer ranges of 40 to 45 metres where the .177 pellets hasn’t penetrated so easily.

 

What is interesting is that I have shot 2 rabbits with the Ultra at 30 metres, 1 in the day on a bank on Newbottle farm that was hit in the head but managed to kick itself back down the hole (my fault) as I was impatient to shoot it and should of waited for it to move a metre or 2 from its entrance.. The other was at night and it just rolled over with a clean brain shot but still passed through.

 

Rabbits seem to die quicker than birds and rats or am I being daft and just imagining it?

 

Before some tries saying that I couldn’t have hit a kill zone if the bird flew or the rat run some distance before dying I have plenty of footage of it happening and I can ensure you that I did hit it in the correct place.

 

On one of the bits of footage that I have I witnessed rats running about 1 or 2 metres before all of a sudden dying at a 12 metres range which is almost my .177 first zero point and a range I wouldn’t make a mistake at off a bipod.

 

I was just wondering if anyone else as noticed this at all?

 

I don’t want to start a calibre war here as I have seen Davys footage on my new DVD (now edited) and he seems to manage very well with his .177 so I have no doubts that a .177 is as deadly as a .22, I just want some of your comments on this please and to find out if the moving of the quarry when shot is normal with the smaller calibre on a lot of occasions.

 

I have emailed Simon Howarth this morning before this post and I am asking him how much it would cost me to get the .177 Ultra changed to a .25 calibre Ultra as I fancy a go with the big calibre and think that it would be good for ferals and rats and devastating on rabbits out to 40 metres which is still a fair range to hit your quarry at.

 

If Simon disagrees with the .25 as a bad idea, I could go .22 with the Ultra as this is my favourite calibre and the calibre which I grew up with and seem to shoot best.

 

Below are some screen shots of kills that I have filmed and the rat as legged it some distance.

Rat 1 - jumped to the left 1 metre and took about 4 seconds to die when the pellet path would of passed at the 1 o’clock position eventually straight through its brain. It kicked about a bit then just flopped and died.

 

Rat 2 - ran towards me about 2 metres off camera before dying under a wooden pallet. The pellet may have struck just forward of the eye looking at the footage again in slow motion but never the less a head shot and from that angle of the pellets flight path would of done some serious damage to the rat.

 

I’m sure my .22 r10 would of just rolled them both over with 16 grain RWS Super Fields.

 

Si

Edited January 11, 2011 by zini

[pianoman 3,584]

Good morning mate.

Yeah, I've had TOO many kills where .177 has not delivered a fast, knockdown punch that .22 has. In fact, some unfortunate moments where a sudden movement from the target rabbit has resulted in fatal wounding and suffering has occured. That is a huge NO NO in my rulebook as it is with you buddy, even though my only .177 rifle is my TX200HC and is on my FAC at 16.8 ft/lbs. Increased power and accurate hits at ranges out to 40 metres are no guarantee of a humane stopping shot in this case. And you cannot afford to have to waste production time on having to erase footage of hunting shots where an apparent wounding shot has happened. It will be useless to point out to some of your critics that, the target animal/bird was effectively killed cleanly when it seems to be scurrying off wounded!

 

It is this experience that is the reason I've ordered my HW77 in .22 as, I want this rifle primarilly for rabbit shooting. As we discussed prior to ordering it, .22 is sticking with what I know works.

 

I know this will invariably fuel responses of the Calibre Debating kind but the truth is, the bigger .22 with its larger frontal mass has a lot more knockdown power than a .177 pellet has. It has nothing to do with how truly gifted a shot you are.

 

As for .25 calibre Si, I have absolutely no experience of it to draw on but, for reasons already stated, I'd be up for having a rifle like another HW80 or HW77 in this calibre if the pellet is as accurate and plentiful as .22.

 

I will only add that, if you are shooting it on legal limit sub 12 ft/lbs power, being a larger and heavier pellet, you'll have a bit more pronounced trajectory curve as you are effectively controlling more of a lob-effect the further out you shoot. Even at a manageable 40 metres, I would think.

Sounds like a good move professionally for you Si. Keep us updated with how you proceed with it.

 

Cheers buddy.

 

Simon

Edited January 11, 2011 by pianoman

[zini 1,939]

Hi Simon,

 

As always a very good and professional reply buddy, thank you for your time and effort mate.

 

Yes you have hit the nail on the head about wasting time and effort on production time etc, but more importantly to me as you stated mate is the fact that I like to see a clean and instantaneous kill especially on camera where others to often judge you wrongly.

 

Regarding the larger surface area I agree 100% mate.

 

In laymen’s terms if I was to throw a golf ball at someone at a certain power level it would hurt them and cause them a bruise etc but if I was to throw a hockey ball at them straight after at the same power, the hockey ball would hurt a lot more and cause more injury and a bigger bruise.

 

Bad example I know as I was talking about hurting other people but you get the idea pal, it’s just an example.

 

I think it’s for this reason that I am defo going to sell, swap or get the Ultra changed to a bigger calibre.

 

I would be happy with a .22 but a .25 would be a very interesting tool for rats and ferals and the odd bunny that happened to get sighted in on a calibrated mildot.

 

Regarding the more pronounced parabolic trajectory of the .25 or .22 mate that to me isn’t a big problem and I would enjoy the challenge of making the shot perfect using my mildots and hold over and hold under technique.

 

This is something that I have been doing for quiet a few years now since I changed from a 30 / 30 Simmons Pro Air reticule to a mildot reticule so am not to bad at it and have had some good results using this technique.

 

NOTE

 

Anyone wish to buy a brilliant condition, almost new, Tench tuned and regulated BSA Ultra in .177 calibre, single shot (just the rifle without the scope and mounts, bipod and silencer) as I’m keeping them for the new .22 or .25?

 

I am asking for a reasonable amount as the rifle is only 3 or 4 weeks old as stated and very accurate and well looked after.

 

£450 with postage to a UK address.

 

Tony (Phantom) as shot this rifle and killed a bunny with it plus hit some long range small targets and will vouch for me when i say that this rifle is very accurate and well looked after,

 

If there are no takers I will just either get the barrel changed and power adjusted for .22 or .25 calibre or keep it for target shooting, HFT or rabbit shooting.

 

I’m not selling it dirt cheap and don’t need the money so no stupid offers please guys.

 

Its just a fair price for a excellant rifle, and i dont want to loose out on money.

 

You all know me lads and know that my rifles are treat like my own children and well looked after so you will only be getting the best.

 

You all in the section have the first chances to buy.

 

Kind regards

 

Si

Edited January 11, 2011 by zini

[rossi_j 99]

Hey si, when shooting with the lads I noticed bis mags bouncing back of the backstop looking almost intact wile other types of pellet would be crumpled up, maybe this is worth looking at as pellets that dont crumple as well dont deliver as mutch blow, I dont have mutch problems with .177 and usualy find I have an instant kill, ofcourse I get the odd runner but always put it down to myself even when I thaught the shot was good.

Just throwing the pellet thing out there for your consideration dont know if there is any milage in it just an observation.

.atb. .ste.

[salukiwhippet 6]

Probably worth trying some different pellets - As said, BisMags are hard and quite pointy, maybe exaggerating the tendency to shoot through. I have good results with RWS Ultra Mags in my ultra - they're a heavy (9+ grain) flathead and don't half pack a wallop - even on rats. RWS Super H Point can be good too if your barrel likes them!

 

Certainly cheaper than a new gun!!

 

James

[Ron Weasley 83]

It's an interesting problem you pose Si! Over penetration is certainly, in my opinion, one of the drawbacks of the increased velocity of the smaller calibre.

 

Like yourself, I shoot a .22 R10 and a .177 Ultra. I've had good kills at long and short ranges with both, but I'm always more confident that my quarry is going to drop dead when I'm using the .22 R10. A few months ago, I shot a rabbit at a paced 42 yards with the Ultra- the bunny inched forward just as I squeezed off the trigger, and the pellet struck the chest, rather than the head as was intended. I thought I'd lost it when it ran forward, but was happy to find that it had only moved about 2 yards and dropped stone dead under some brambles. Upon inspection, the pellet had passed right through the lungs and heart and come to a stop against the front leg on the side furthest away from me. While it was without doubt a humane kill (albeit a fortunate one), I have no doubts at all that it would have just rolled over if hit in the same place with a .22.

 

I realise I'm basically just repeating what you've already said, but I wanted to give my thoughts on the matter- and this is why I personally prefer to do the majority of my shooting with .22

 

As for a .25, I personally would be interested to see the results. As Simon (pianoman) already said, the lob effect of the trajectory will certainly make a difference- especially when you're shooting at close ranges for rats!

 

Have you thought about compromising and plumping for a .20? Again, I have no experience of the calibre, but I'd be interested to see how it would work out.

[pianoman 3,584]

Hi Ron

I agree with you that .20 is a good compromise calibre. But I think Si here is going for a maximum effect, full sized, heavy hunting round that decisively knocks down his quarry and eliminates the over-penetration of the faster, smaller .177 round. To go up a notch to .20 is perhaps too small a quantitive developement. As has been stated, this is not about calibre debates and the merits of one calibre over another, we all know what they are. It's about the bigger punch! As for the .25's parabolic tragectory, it's a matter for recalibration of his mildots to factor-in the degree of "Lob-Value" this calibre will display. It's going to be really interesting what he comes up with.

 

As to the rifle he's selling. I had a chat recently with him about it and I can vouch with all confidence just how superbly sorted and set-up this Ultra is. Someone is going to get an amazing rifle at the asking price. Alas not for me; I'm a spring rifle desciple and pcp's are the sperm of the Devil!

 

ATB

 

Simon

[Treganin 2]

I'm a spring rifle desciple and pcp's are the sperm of the Devil!

 

ATB

 

Simon

 

 

Good Thread, I'm particularly interested in your theory that Rabbits die quicker than birds. I have in the past cleanly (Head/Heart) shot quite a few Pigeons at around 25-30m that seemed to flap for quite a while, though obviously dead. My thoughts are that with the .22 pellet passing through thin bone at a relatively high velocity the internal trauma is 'minimised', However with rabbits the pellet is striking a comparitively thicker bone structure and taking more of the bone mass through the brain, causing far greater trauma and an instant death.

 

My logic here is that if you shoot at a back board of differing gauges of ply the thicker the ply (to a point) the greater the damage on the reverse.

 

Make any sense?

[zini 1,939]

Hi Ste,

 

Yep that point is very true too mate,

 

A change of pellet could help massively; I know Davy uses AA Fields so they could be a lot softer than the Magnums and impact better stopping power.

 

Changing to a softer lead would defo give more kinetic transfer that’s for sure and spread better.

 

That’s why I said yesterday that different leads impact deeper etc, hence the yellow pages test being very crude mate.

 

Tench informs me that Falcon Accuracy Plus pellets fly very flat at 7 grain and are very soft making for great spread effect of the pellet on the vermin’s brains transferring better kinetic energy.

 

They also have the same BC he says as a heavier .177 pellet so not getting slowed by drag much and staying very flat.

 

Thanks Ron buddy,

 

What you said made perfect sense to me buddy and welcomed.

 

I’m glad that it isn’t just me seeing this effect.

 

True what you say about unintentional wounding shots in a .177 seem to pass straight through but a .22 smashes the bones of the rabbit say and knocks it straight over anyway 99% of the time.

 

Hi Simon,

 

Yep you are right buddy; I’m after the maximum energy transfer for the camera.

 

I may just try a softer pellet first to see what happens before I decide to sell or not now as the rifle is so accurate and consistent; it’s a shame to get rid of her.

 

I would put her up against any normal hunting rifle on the market including your Air Wolfs for accuracy and consistency buddy.

 

Tench as done a wonderful job with her. I’ve called her my Patterdale, LOL.

 

It may just pan out that I keep her and get a .25 later mate so that I have 3 calibre to choose from depending on what I’m shooting that day.

 

Rats, ferals and close range bunnies would defo get some .25 lead.

 

Keep your comments coming lads please.

 

Remember its not a which calibre is the best as we all know that all calibres are deadly, its about a quick role over shock of energy and making my footage better for the tree huggers that like to slaughter me on YouTube.

 

Here are a few shots that I’ve done over the past few weeks, some you will have already seen, some not that show close, medium and longer shots with the Ultra where you will see the results with the harder Magnum pellets.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XJ5UzKuOvy4

 

Si

[zini 1,939]

That makes perfect sense Treganin buddy and thanks for the input.

 

Welcome to our section buddy.

 

I aggree with you pal 100%.

 

Si

[pianoman 3,584]

Hi Treganin

I think you're talking about kinetic shock compression effect. The larger a fast moving object is, the greater the drag its mass creates, through the air or liquid it's passing through. When your pellet (it doesn't matter what calibre) hits a board of plywood, it bores a hole for itself and the energy shockwave ahead of the pellet, gathers and piles up compressing fibres of wood like a bow wave from a ship, and punches them out of the back as the pellet exits. Making a larger exit hole than what it started with as it tears itself out.

 

With the strike on a rabbit or bird by a .22 round, the drag effect is one of hydrodynamic shock as fluids and blood compress into a physical kinetic force piling up and compressing in front as the pellet enters. With a .22 pellet, the effect is significantly potent as it is effectively creating an instantly compressed liquid percussion blow against surrounding nerves and organs, as well as the physical damage channel the pellet cuts into bone and tissue and leaves in its wake. Plus, the added effect of the pellet having time to deform and acheive greater dimension and thus, damage.

 

The rabbit or bird is physically stopped and knocked for six as the larger pellet thwacks into it and it's blood and fluids create drag on the mass which slows it down to an instant stop. Thus all the energy the pellet was carrying at point of impact is retained and transfers into a stunning knock-down blow.

 

With .177 being smaller and faster, it hits very hard but, it's smaller frontal mass creates less drag and so, less hydrodynamic kinetic shock as it literally bores like a thin drill through bone and tissue. Hence there is more chance of the animal being able to run on a little further before the physical damage of the pellet takes over. It's as fatal as before but, lacking the level of hydrodynamic shock it, just not quite as instantaneous.

 

It's only as the pellet slows down over longer range that the penetrative effect is lessened and a level of effective kinetic shock rises and takes over with increased drag at slower speed and energy level.

 

Direct hit into the brain = instant switch-off. Regardless of calibre!

 

Pheww I'm taking me anorak off!!

 

Kind regards

 

Simon

Edited January 11, 2011 by pianoman

[rossi_j 99]

Hey si, with sutch a cracking rifle it would be a great shame to not exhaust all options before deciding to sell, e.g heavy and soft pellets for ratting at close range, soft medium pellets for diferent situations, I know there is going to be a comprimise somewhere

Id also like to point out I am aware im not telling you anything you dont already know lol, see what you can come up with mate maybe shoot some yellow pages or something ha ha.

.atb. .ste.

[zini 1,939]

Wow Simon great reply buddy and very scientific, I like it.

 

Hi Ste,

 

Yep your right pal I am waiting and going to try other things first before I let my little girl go.

 

Ill see how she does next week in the UK.

 

“I am aware I’m not telling you anything you don’t already knowâ€Hey all comments are very welcome buddy and no one knows everything.

 

Si

[darren watson 14]

aaaaah, one of my first ever post on here was questioning why pigeons sometimes flew off a bit after i'd shot them and Si got back to me straight away saying something along the lines of "if you hit it in the kill zone, it will die". (i'm not knocking Si's advice by the way) The amount of times i checked and re-checked my zero soon outnumbered the shots at quarry on every trip out and still some times i had a bit of a walk to find a pigeon that had managed to flap away from the tree we were staking out. I had my gun back to the shop thinking it was under powered an the lot. After weeks of doubting my ability as a shooter, I finally ruled that out after being able to hit a pop bottle top consistently at around 35/40 yards.

What i'd never have took into consideration is that i'd just started using crosman accupells which were a LOT harder than the superdomes i'd previously been using, i think they might be a little bit pointier and they're definately shorter cos they rattle about in the mag. I'm thinking that over penetration at close range is the issue and ater reading what people have put on this thread im seriously thinking of changing pellets again. I also have heard great things about the Falcon accuracy plus pellets being very good and as my rifle is a falcon, these will be the next pellets i try. can anyone explain if the length of a pellet can affect its performance?

Edited January 11, 2011 by darren watson

[zini 1,939]

Si got back to me straight away saying something along the lines of "if you hit it in the kill zone, it will die".

 

They do die mate read all the thread Im not disputing that I never have.

 

They are meat, bone and tissue and not Kevlar so a .177 to the head kills them. no matter what.

 

The thread is about the kinetic force rolling them over straight away on camera and not if a woody dies if shot in the head with a .177.

 

If I was you and just wanted to shoot a bit of food or take a few pictures mate i would be happy to carry on with what Im doing, its humane and my shots are accurate.

 

As said though it doesnt look good on camera to some people, me included.

 

Please dont think that if you use a .22 that the thing rolls over 100% of the time to mate.

 

I have seen my fair share of runners but not as many as I have seen using my Ultra.

 

Muscle memory, nerves and survival instincts all pay some part in the equation I believe too.

 

Like I said mate all comments are welcome. (edited)

Si

Edited January 11, 2011 by zini