Thanks for all the help and i think i understand now! and will try one! so a typical pattern might be 10,10,12,12,14,14,16,16,18,18,18,18,18,16,16,14,14,12,12,10,10 ? As the way i start a net is to do 2 full rows of net in a line then collect them together to make the first 2 rows and then fasten them round a guide rope tension holder for one end!