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#46 Hydropotesinermis

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Posted 13 April 2015 - 10:42 pm

I don't know about the forestry commission, I don't care.

I never stalk without a dog, i shoot my fair share of deer and unfortunately i have the occasional f**k up. Some i wouldn't have been able to un f**k without a dog.

My point was this. At present if you don't have access to a proper, well trained deer dog there are people who will track wounded deer fo free, you just have to call them.

I don't understand what is so hard about that.

If you don't have access to a proper deer dog or you are too pig headed to phone someone who has in the event of something going wrong then in my opinion you are irresponsible.

Born hunter, i assume from your avatar that you have a running dog for rabbiting? You wouldn't try and course rabbits in the lamp with a staffy would you? No. So why is the suggestion that having a decent, properly trained deer dog for deer work so alien?

#47 3175darren

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Posted 14 April 2015 - 04:14 am

I don't know about the forestry commission, I don't care.
I never stalk without a dog, i shoot my fair share of deer and unfortunately i have the occasional f**k up. Some i wouldn't have been able to un f**k without a dog.
My point was this. At present if you don't have access to a proper, well trained deer dog there are people who will track wounded deer fo free, you just have to call them.
I don't understand what is so hard about that.
If you don't have access to a proper deer dog or you are too pig headed to phone someone who has in the event of something going wrong then in my opinion you are irresponsible.
Born hunter, i assume from your avatar that you have a running dog for rabbiting? You wouldn't try and course rabbits in the lamp with a staffy would you? No. So why is the suggestion that having a decent, properly trained deer dog for deer work so alien?

Its not, I shoot my share of deer too , and have stalked since 1986 , my point was it shouldn't be compulsory, as I have and pointed out the cost will be added once it is, my other point was your comment on proper, and stu mentioning certificated, well who decides the standard, and no it's not rocket sience, and the running dog, is one of my dogs , I have a blood dog asI have said before, I have a lab, for my wildfowling/ pheasant shooting, I have been around dogs all my life, but it's funny how you comment on my running dog, if that has caused a pre conception of me , then I am sorry,you couldn't see past it, I am no fool in the hunting field, and I am a believer in sport for everyone, not just a few, and have spent a lot of my time teaching and helping people into stalking and shooting, I neither look down or up at people, I am an Englishman and proud of or hunting shooting stalking, heritage, and don't want things making compulsery, written into contracts to hike the price, beyond the average mans reach,or forced to adopt a European standard, as said before it's good practice to have one or access to one,but compulsery I do not agree with it is my opinion, and I have said my last on it,
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#48 Hydropotesinermis

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Posted 14 April 2015 - 06:52 am

I have nothing against running dogs, and actually that comment was aimed at born hunter who had previously joked about needing a different dog for every sport. The reason I mentioned running dogs is because his avatar has a picture of one. It was an example of my point, that's all, no prejudice involved.

Actually I don necessarily agree with the European style of dog tracking but that is by the by. My point is that if you wound a deer there are people you can call.

This service is in use on the continent, government sanctioned and free of charge.

I see no reason why it would be made compulsory here, and like you I would not like to see it made compulsory but now we are talking politics. It is definitely best practice and that is what I am saying.

We won't ever agree but in my opinion if you stalk deer without access to a dog you are irresponsible.

Another example, if I met you in the pub and said that I went wildfowling the other day and I shot two geese but they landed in a reed bed and it was dark so I didn't bother to look for them you would think that was irresponsible surely. If you had been there you'd have sent your lab right?

So why is the suggestion of deer dogs so alien.

Edited by Hydropotesinermis, 14 April 2015 - 07:08 am.

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#49 3175darren

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Posted 14 April 2015 - 07:25 am

It's not alien, but compulsery is,we are ruled to a point of oppression,
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#50 Hydropotesinermis

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Posted 14 April 2015 - 08:18 am

I don't disagree with you there.

I don't want to make anything compulsory.

My original post was inflammatory but It is my opinion.

If you stalk deer without access to an adequate deer dog you are an arsehole.

I don't mean you necessarily have to own one, several of my mates call me out if they have an issue (I bring my dog.)

If you don't know anybody who has a deer dog then there are organisations who will help.

Darren, you have a deer dog, that must be because you realise their value, if one of the people who you have mentored phoned you up and asked for help finding a deer I am Sure you would take your dog and do your best.

Those people are stalking with access to a deer dog, they aren't arseholes in my opinion, neither are you.

If anybody is reading this and stalks deer and doesn't know anybody at all who has a decent deer dog then I would urge them to contact one of the tracking organisations, fins out about the scheme and put the number in their phone - you may never need it, if so, great, but when you do you will be glad you had it.

#51 3175darren

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Posted 14 April 2015 - 10:42 am

I would always help anyone in such a situation,but they are as rare as hens teeth,because of our standards in England, in these so called deer dogs, are billed as something godly in there abilities and it's not the case, blood really is easy for a dog to follow, any dog, I use a Teckel now, but there's not enough, blood work to keep the dog endaged, in a useful, way and I won't have a dog sat idle,
IMG_0856_zpse5d718d7.jpg

So a dedicated blood dog will have a boring life, better multi tasking

50944BDA-5FD3-4E4A-BC1A-4C42BFB7AA8E_zps
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#52 THE STALKER

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Posted 14 April 2015 - 11:46 am

Yes i agree in my mind it is not feasible for the recreational Stalker to have Deer dog just in case of a lost Deer,  if you can get hold of one  all well and good it is not always the case, if  you lose one late in the day you can't get hold of a dog etc.So to make it compulsory would be wrong in lots of ways for the Average person who likes to do a bit of stalking.


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#53 Hydropotesinermis

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Posted 14 April 2015 - 03:46 pm

A deer dog won't always follow a blood trail, often there won't be one.

 

In the example that started this whole debate off a head shot was taken which resulted in a miss.

 

if you head or neck shoot and f**k up there will almost certainly be no blood trail.

 

what your dog is following then is the pheromones released by the inter digital scent glands because the deer is under stress, this differentiates it from live deer's foot scent. An experienced dog will pick this scent up amongst live deer scent. even in a park. It is impressive stuff.

 

I would imagine Darren that if your Teckel has as much experience as you say it would work on foot scent just as well as it does on blood trailing. 



#54 Hydropotesinermis

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Posted 14 April 2015 - 03:52 pm

The stalker. 

 

Just to calrify I am not saying it should be made compulsory. Really speaking it shouldn't have to be, it's just being responsible. 

 

EVERYONE who stalks has access to a deer dog!! I keep banging on about the UKSHA and the UKDTR. They will come and trail your deer. It's what the do, for enjoyment. Often for free. You just have to take the leap and phone them.

 

http://www.ukdeertra...recovery.co.uk/

 

http://uksha.co.uk/



#55 Philluk

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Posted 14 April 2015 - 07:52 pm

if you say on one hand everyone should have a dog and its irisponcible not to have one,
then say if you don't have one these people will come out and find it for you.
Then in essence everyone has access to a deer dog.

End of subject

#56 3175darren

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Posted 14 April 2015 - 09:14 pm

A deer dog won't always follow a blood trail, often there won't be one.
 
In the example that started this whole debate off a head shot was taken which resulted in a miss.
 
if you head or neck shoot and f**k up there will almost certainly be no blood trail.
 
what your dog is following then is the pheromones released by the inter digital scent glands because the deer is under stress, this differentiates it from live deer's foot scent. An experienced dog will pick this scent up amongst live deer scent. even in a park. It is impressive stuff.
 
I would imagine Darren that if your Teckel has as much experience as you say it would work on foot scent just as well as it does on blood trailing.

to be fare when ever I take her and kill, I use the opportunity to keep the dog's nose in without dought the dog will switch at some point onto foot scent, but to be fair I always go for heart lung shots, it's a absolute act of necessity for me to take any other shot and as such there's always been a blood trail for the dog to latch onto,I can't rule out she has on occasion switched to foot scent, but you can usually, check this by the presence of blood, if I take her the morning after and put her on cold scent or even the next evening, she gets very deliberate, scratching the ground trying to confirm what she is following, the thing with old blood the scent lingers quite a while after, in the soil depending on weather, some times if you walk her up the trod the deer followed you can tell she's onto a scent but she clings close, then once we reach the point of bullet strike, and the scent of blood gets into the mix different animal all together, tail very high and pace comes right up, till she's with the carcase,at that point nothing will distract her.
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#57 Hydropotesinermis

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Posted 14 April 2015 - 10:51 pm

if you say on one hand everyone should have a dog and its irisponcible not to have one,
then say if you don't have one these people will come out and find it for you.
Then in essence everyone has access to a deer dog.

End of subject


Well yeah! That's my point!! All you have to do is pick up the phone.

#58 Philluk

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Posted 15 April 2015 - 08:16 am

How is someone going to test what a good deer dog does, this is my point about a lot of things who tests the testers, its no good saying we have some deer blood or a piece of skin and will lay trail, the end result has to be the animal is located, i take my dog to where i last saw it and let him go and sit back and wait for the barking, it can seconds or minutes if he was to come across a bit of skin he wont take any notice, its not a game and he does not want bits of skin.  so is that a bad thing?

 

so really to test my dog you need to wound a deer and he will find it, or will i have to re train him. 


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#59 Hydropotesinermis

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Posted 15 April 2015 - 08:27 am

How is someone going to test what a good deer dog does, this is my point about a lot of things who tests the testers, its no good saying we have some deer blood or a piece of skin and will lay trail, the end result has to be the animal is located, i take my dog to where i last saw it and let him go and sit back and wait for the barking, it can seconds or minutes if he was to come across a bit of skin he wont take any notice, its not a game and he does not want bits of skin.  so is that a bad thing?
 
so really to test my dog you need to wound a deer and he will find it, or will i have to re train him. 


On the subject of testing deer dogs, I don't know. I haven't heard anything about making it compulsory to have a deer dog.

As far as I am concerned a deer dog is a dog that is trained to find wounded deer. I have never in my life laid a trail for mine, he stalks at heel with me and is on to deer within 15 mins of shot.

What I mean by a deer dog is not your mates dog that has never seen a deer before in its life but "had a good nose" or your wife's spaniel that comes beating now and then.

If your dog can trail wounded deer, that is the majority of its work and you can hand on heart say that you can rely on it then you have a deer dog in my opinion.

That's why I keep saying that it isn't that hard!

The original poster didn't check with any type of dog at all if I remember correctly after a possible miss which he expected to find a dead deer laying in the grass. So I read from that that he thought he hit it until it wasn't lying there.

#60 Philluk

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Posted 15 April 2015 - 08:44 am

sorry to blow another theory meet the wifes spaniel

 

Attached File  penny 2.JPG   120.62KB   0 downloads

 

meet the wifes spaniel working sorry for the moving pic 

 

Attached File  penny1.jpg   108.2KB   0 downloads


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