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#121 Lab

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Posted 22 November 2011 - 11:47 am


As long as you keep writing like you do you will make people like myself who tend to sit on the fence and see both sides and not be blinkered hope and pray that the ban will be lifted.
It saddens me to read that a superior intellect like yourself can't see that whether a deer is coursed or a mis placed shot will cause different degrees of stress...... And that is a fact not an opinion.


One is the result of a mistake, error, miscalculation etc. That every conscientious ethical stalker does everything in his power to eliminate. Regrettable but inevitable if you do enough these things occasionally happen. Where as the other is a deliberate, pre-calculated, intentional act that repeats itself every time the act is committed.That is also a fact not an opinion.
Well its part and parcel of the hunting world isn't it? I think we can both agree that a shooter if he could would like to place a shot that was an instant kill 100% of the time and if anyone running a dog could make it possible for a deer to feel no stress during the course then i'm sure any true hunter would. But none of these things can be done i'm afraid. Its pot luck whether a perfect shot is placed and how long a course lasts.
Maybe i should apologise for calling you a c**t as well as you are obviously passionate about your sport but i'm a firm believer in live and let live and for all to enjoy there chosen hunting sport. Thats something we will never see eye to eye on.
If i could add i really think you would get on better if you stopped mentioning how pleased you are with the ban, we all know your views and do you really think we need to hear it at every opportunity? Its this blatant two fingers up and "na na nana na" attitude thats getting peoples backs up!!... :yes:

#122 Richie10

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Posted 22 November 2011 - 11:50 am


As long as you keep writing like you do you will make people like myself who tend to sit on the fence and see both sides and not be blinkered hope and pray that the ban will be lifted.
It saddens me to read that a superior intellect like yourself can't see that whether a deer is coursed or a mis placed shot will cause different degrees of stress...... And that is a fact not an opinion.


One is the result of a mistake, error, miscalculation etc. That every conciousness ethical stalker does everything in his power to eliminate Regrettable but inevitable if you do enough these things occasionally happen. Where as the other is a deliberate, pre-calculated, intentional act that repeats itself every time the act is committed.That is also a fact not an opinion.


When going out to put a deer on the ground it is intentional, the fact whether cruelty is involve is irrelevent. The goal is the prize. When shooting only a head shot, which is frowned upon, is going to be humane. Shooting in the engine room is going to to do damage to the internal organs to cause bleeding. Even hitting the heart will not result in an instant death, the point of shooting is to cause blood loss.
You bang on about being humane, the word exists to make people feel better about themselves. You intentionally put animals under stress, shoot them to cause internal bleeding, preferably in an area which would mean less meat damage and then say you are humane. The public wouldn't understand that, if they have any knowledge of the human/animal anatomy will understand it is a slow death, which it is, you shot and then watch them run off to bleed out, you don't follow up for a final shot, you stand back and let them bleed.
I have stalked plenty of deer with and without professionals and being humane is second to putting the beast on the floor. Pinning the shoulders for some types. You might all sing from the same sheet, looking down on other disaplines but in reality, the less stalking is scrutinised the more you can pull the wool over the publics eyes.

Now you say you have found dying deer in ditches that are caused by poachers, tell me why they would leave them alive and not gralloched to take away.
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#123 bunnybasher69

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Posted 22 November 2011 - 01:17 pm

It is not a fact that dogs are released to cause great injury and tourment on the deer. A proper dogman wouldn't want a dog that was unable to do the job right just like a proper gunman wouldn't want to use the wrong gun.
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#124 Richie10

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Posted 22 November 2011 - 03:12 pm

BB69,
The chap has not a clue about it, he thinks he knows but the truth is his experience comes from LACS. He thinks any dog can do it and that dogmen don't strive to get a good dog that will make a clean catch and kill.
He talks rubbish and will always brings morals and ethics into the equation, even though people don't vote with that in mind, just ignorance.
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#125 paulus

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Posted 22 November 2011 - 05:27 pm

ethics :laugh: the choices are 1) shot through the lung/kidneys and posibly the heart if its lucky then left to die from either blood loss or shock or 2) asphyxiation from clamping of the windpipe or severing of the windpipe :hmm: strange that second one as joe public has no intentions of banning halal slaughter houses.
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#126 foxdropper

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Posted 22 November 2011 - 05:45 pm

Still stand by the fact that no man has the right to criticize another having not done it .This chap bases his condemnation on the ill effects of a few encounters with fallen deer that were or were not taken with a lurcher ,could of been the farm cur for all he knows .Too many laws based on this sort of sketchy fact and too many self appointed judges critisizing those whos passion is different to his own .What ever way you dress it up Geeky Phill, you are a bigot of the highest order ,something you probably relish but not one id care for .That alleged shot over the boundary you refer to has yet to be proved mate and will never from what ive seen, so be careful what you put in print as these things have a habit of returning and biting you on the ass .
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#127 Richie10

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Posted 22 November 2011 - 05:46 pm

Very true Paulus. I enjoy all the sports but to say one over the other is more ethical or morally right is incorrect.
The mere act of going out to take a beast involves cruelty, it is the fact whether you can face that fact or not.
If you cannot bear it happening then go vegetarian, better still vegan.
There is always the same discussion of bowhunters and rifle shooters, they both kill using the same principle but alot of people with guns see it as cruel.
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#128 predatorman

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Posted 22 November 2011 - 06:02 pm



As long as you keep writing like you do you will make people like myself who tend to sit on the fence and see both sides and not be blinkered hope and pray that the ban will be lifted.
It saddens me to read that a superior intellect like yourself can't see that whether a deer is coursed or a mis placed shot will cause different degrees of stress...... And that is a fact not an opinion.


One is the result of a mistake, error, miscalculation etc. That every conciousness ethical stalker does everything in his power to eliminate Regrettable but inevitable if you do enough these things occasionally happen. Where as the other is a deliberate, pre-calculated, intentional act that repeats itself every time the act is committed.That is also a fact not an opinion.


When going out to put a deer on the ground it is intentional, the fact whether cruelty is involve is irrelevent. The goal is the prize. When shooting only a head shot, which is frowned upon, is going to be humane. Shooting in the engine room is going to to do damage to the internal organs to cause bleeding. Even hitting the heart will not result in an instant death, the point of shooting is to cause blood loss.
You bang on about being humane, the word exists to make people feel better about themselves. You intentionally put animals under stress, shoot them to cause internal bleeding, preferably in an area which would mean less meat damage and then say you are humane. The public wouldn't understand that, if they have any knowledge of the human/animal anatomy will understand it is a slow death, which it is, you shot and then watch them run off to bleed out, you don't follow up for a final shot, you stand back and let them bleed.
I have stalked plenty of deer with and without professionals and being humane is second to putting the beast on the floor. Pinning the shoulders for some types. You might all sing from the same sheet, looking down on other disaplines but in reality, the less stalking is scrutinised the more you can pull the wool over the publics eyes.

Now you say you have found dying deer in ditches that are caused by poachers, tell me why they would leave them alive and not gralloched to take away.

they wouldnt leave them that way and he's taking a load of rubbish like the pellet ridden deer stalker. its always the same with one man band shooters, if they're not at each others throats, they're having a go at other fieldsports, all aimed at wanting more deer for themselves. keep up the good work lurchermen, there's plenty for all.
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#129 jonah.

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Posted 23 November 2011 - 12:09 am

Rasher/greek phil/Gerfalcon + Khakibob.......keyboard hunter / internet troll. very sad individual.

to the OP, hunting of any sort when the methods / tools are not fit for the quarry is wrong full stop.

#130 WILF

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Posted 23 November 2011 - 10:50 am



Its not just the air rifle numpties that fail in the quarry respect stakes. There are those that will still actively seek to course deer. http://www.thehuntinglife.com/forums/pub... http://www.thehuntinglife.com/forums/pub...

deer were taken with dogs along time before guns were invented infact it was the sport of kings leaving the pesants to use other methods. http://www.thehuntinglife.com/forums/pub...

Ah, the old historical justification get out of gaol debate.

Before the invention of the wheel we all had to walk everywhere unless you were rich enough to own slaves to carry you. Perhaps you would like to see the return of slavery too?

Prior to the1802 and 1819 Factory Acts children as young as 4 years old where made to work in mines and factories and young girls under the age of 10 were forced into prostitution. Such forced labour and personal abuse are now considered by civilised countries to be human rights violations. Perhaps you would like to see them common practices again.

Young women working in the milinery trade were made old before their time and poisoned to death due to their exposure to mercury.

Time, and society moves forward. Attitudes and behaviour change. Science advances knowledge and once common practices are seen in a different more informed light. Its called progress!

Hello Greek Phil or whoever you are this time........are you back again you halfwit?
I suppose this thread will run until you finish whatever book your reading out of this time and you will then re-surface as yet another "name"

#131 WILF

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Posted 23 November 2011 - 11:28 am

Unfortunately your correct there are those who live outside the law and cause suffering either intentional or unintentional it matters not in my book, whether its someone with a rifle ,a bow, a spear ,a lassoo any person who involves himself in bringing about any animals demise has a responsibility as a human being to do it as quickly and as humanely as possible.

Sometimes things go wrong in the discipline that I am involved in and I do question myself at these times have I done enough to prevent suffering sometimes it comes close and its on my conscience for quite a considerable period of time after, I know however this is not the case with everyone and its each to there own in their beliefs but I cant help but question those beliefs of others at times as i am sure other people do on here when they see the end result of deer hounded and left dieing such evidence is a visual reminder that there are those out there who do not have any conscious whatsoever.

I also have seen the same scenario with poachers using guns and cross bows on deer . this cant be viewed as sport or wildlife control its utter cruelty as a hunting sports fraternity we have a duty to the animals we hunt to stop this kind of thing , before we all loose what we have not to condone it, Its not the LACS or other anti blood sports org that will be our end its those in our midst thats bringing us in to disrepute.

How we going to carry on in future generations to come is up to how we are seen to sort ourselves out now and in the trying times a head, so basically what i am says clean up our act or else we wont get a chance to make a show let alone a pantomine.

And I think i have pleaded my case to death on this one for a while .

Thanks for listening
Stu


Stu,
As always a well thought out and reasonable reply but I have to take you up on a couple of things?

What is classed as "cruel" or "suffering"?............I only ask because in lots of stalking accounts (yours included) it plainly states that a shot beast has run on for sometimes 100yds plus before dieing........would that not be classed as suffering or cruel seeing as it was not instant?

As for poachers using guns and bows, well stalkers use guns and bow hunting is widesparead in the united states.......so who is the judge of the poacher or the bow hunters skill with rifle or bow?

It is my firm belief that due to social propaganda, we as hunters feel the need to keep justifying what we do to ourselves and others (and by defualt condem anyone who dont fit "our" ethics) when the reality is, we hunt to have hunted and the by product is that sometimes an animal will die.

Killing is killing, dont dress it up and dont feel guilty about what you do.........your killing (and anyone elses) is no different to the next blokes.......live with it people! :victory: :victory:
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#132 Caprelous

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Posted 23 November 2011 - 11:44 am


Unfortunately your correct there are those who live outside the law and cause suffering either intentional or unintentional it matters not in my book, whether its someone with a rifle ,a bow, a spear ,a lassoo any person who involves himself in bringing about any animals demise has a responsibility as a human being to do it as quickly and as humanely as possible.

Sometimes things go wrong in the discipline that I am involved in and I do question myself at these times have I done enough to prevent suffering sometimes it comes close and its on my conscience for quite a considerable period of time after, I know however this is not the case with everyone and its each to there own in their beliefs but I cant help but question those beliefs of others at times as i am sure other people do on here when they see the end result of deer hounded and left dieing such evidence is a visual reminder that there are those out there who do not have any conscious whatsoever.

I also have seen the same scenario with poachers using guns and cross bows on deer . this cant be viewed as sport or wildlife control its utter cruelty as a hunting sports fraternity we have a duty to the animals we hunt to stop this kind of thing , before we all loose what we have not to condone it, Its not the LACS or other anti blood sports org that will be our end its those in our midst thats bringing us in to disrepute.

How we going to carry on in future generations to come is up to how we are seen to sort ourselves out now and in the trying times a head, so basically what i am says clean up our act or else we wont get a chance to make a show let alone a pantomine.

And I think i have pleaded my case to death on this one for a while .

Thanks for listening
Stu


Stu,
As always a well thought out and reasonable reply but I have to take you up on a couple of things?

What is classed as "cruel" or "suffering"?............I only ask because in lots of stalking accounts (yours included) it plainly states that a shot beast has run on for sometimes 100yds plus before dieing........would that not be classed as suffering or cruel seeing as it was not instant?

As for poachers using guns and bows, well stalkers use guns and bow hunting is widesparead in the united states.......so who is the judge of the poacher or the bow hunters skill with rifle or bow?

It is my firm belief that due to social propaganda, we as hunters feel the need to keep justifying what we do to ourselves and others (and by defualt condem anyone who dont fit "our" ethics) when the reality is, we hunt to have hunted and the by product is that sometimes an animal will die.

Killing is killing, dont dress it up and dont feel guilty about what you do.........your killing (and anyone elses) is no different to the next blokes.......live with it people! http://www.thehuntinglife.com/forums/pub... http://www.thehuntinglife.com/forums/pub...

As I have said in my last post i wasnt going to respond further on this matter as its been milked to death, I think I have been more than explicit in my postings and views and my personal feeling on this very emotive subject and as you quite rightly point out ethics and what we do is up to the individual, its obvious from the postings on here that there are differences in beliefs and quite clearly mine are different to others, and I stand by them, I ask that you respect my views and the differences I hold and leave it at that.
We are all entitled to our views just as it should be albiet mine are different than others.

Kind regards
Stuart
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#133 WILF

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Posted 23 November 2011 - 11:46 am

As I have said in my last post i wasnt going to respond further on this matter as its been milked to death, I think I have been more than explicit in my postings and views and my personal feeling on this very emotive subject and as you quite rightly point out ethics and what we do is up to the individual, its obvious from the postings on here that there are differences in beliefs and quite clearly mine are different to others, and I stand by them, I ask that you respect my views and the differences I hold and leave it at that.
We are all entitled to our views just as it should be albiet mine are different than others.

Kind regards
Stuart


:thumbs:

#134 gerfalcon

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Posted 23 November 2011 - 12:38 pm



Unfortunately your correct there are those who live outside the law and cause suffering either intentional or unintentional it matters not in my book, whether its someone with a rifle ,a bow, a spear ,a lassoo any person who involves himself in bringing about any animals demise has a responsibility as a human being to do it as quickly and as humanely as possible.

Sometimes things go wrong in the discipline that I am involved in and I do question myself at these times have I done enough to prevent suffering sometimes it comes close and its on my conscience for quite a considerable period of time after, I know however this is not the case with everyone and its each to there own in their beliefs but I cant help but question those beliefs of others at times as i am sure other people do on here when they see the end result of deer hounded and left dieing such evidence is a visual reminder that there are those out there who do not have any conscious whatsoever.

I also have seen the same scenario with poachers using guns and cross bows on deer . this cant be viewed as sport or wildlife control its utter cruelty as a hunting sports fraternity we have a duty to the animals we hunt to stop this kind of thing , before we all loose what we have not to condone it, Its not the LACS or other anti blood sports org that will be our end its those in our midst thats bringing us in to disrepute.

How we going to carry on in future generations to come is up to how we are seen to sort ourselves out now and in the trying times a head, so basically what i am says clean up our act or else we wont get a chance to make a show let alone a pantomine.

And I think i have pleaded my case to death on this one for a while .

Thanks for listening
Stu


Stu,
As always a well thought out and reasonable reply but I have to take you up on a couple of things?

What is classed as "cruel" or "suffering"?............I only ask because in lots of stalking accounts (yours included) it plainly states that a shot beast has run on for sometimes 100yds plus before dieing........would that not be classed as suffering or cruel seeing as it was not instant?

As for poachers using guns and bows, well stalkers use guns and bow hunting is widesparead in the united states.......so who is the judge of the poacher or the bow hunters skill with rifle or bow?

It is my firm belief that due to social propaganda, we as hunters feel the need to keep justifying what we do to ourselves and others (and by defualt condem anyone who dont fit "our" ethics) when the reality is, we hunt to have hunted and the by product is that sometimes an animal will die.

Killing is killing, dont dress it up and dont feel guilty about what you do.........your killing (and anyone elses) is no different to the next blokes.......live with it people! http://www.thehuntinglife.com/forums/pub... http://www.thehuntinglife.com/forums/pub...

As I have said in my last post i wasnt going to respond further on this matter as its been milked to death, I think I have been more than explicit in my postings and views and my personal feeling on this very emotive subject and as you quite rightly point out ethics and what we do is up to the individual, its obvious from the postings on here that there are differences in beliefs and quite clearly mine are different to others, and I stand by them, I ask that you respect my views and the differences I hold and leave it at that.
We are all entitled to our views just as it should be albiet mine are different than others.

Kind regards
Stuart

Stu

Seeing as you have added a reply. There are a couple of points I'd like to address.

"as you quite rightly point out ethics and what we do is up to the individual" That's not strictly true and is certainly not true in regards to the coursing of deer. As the Hunting Act 2004 demonstrates. There are social and legal influences that have an impact on those acceptable ethics and behaviours. Its a common ploy of those who condone and participate in unethical and unjustifiable activities to try and claim its individual choice and to try and offer examples from other countries, other societies , other cultures to support their claims. The simple answer is none of these feeble claims stake up. It they did perhaps we would all be loping of hands of thieves, stoning women accused of adultery, killing whales under the guise of scientific research, or forcing native peoples from their ancestral home lands in order to clear fell forest and plant soya and maize to feed the demand for cheap meat and bio ethanol.

Personally I respect anyone's POV as long as they can provide a viable, well reasoned and accurate argument to support it. If they can't its simply hyperbole and bullshit. And as we know it gets stacked mightily high at times when we have ethical methods of deer culling being discussed. As yet we are still waiting for that viable, well reasoned and accurate argument to be provided in regards to the coursing of deer by lurchers by the members of this forum, or any where else for that matter. Although we have had plenty of the others.

As for the name callers such as WILF. All than needs to be said is it takes one to know one. :laugh: And I'll take that win every day of the week. :toast:

#135 Richie10

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Posted 23 November 2011 - 01:04 pm

Rasher/Greek Phil,
Read my previous reply which you have quickly ignored. The act of stalking is a mystery to the wider public, they aren't aware of the practises, they relate shooting to a quick death and if you have even participated know full well what happens to a shot deer.
You keep quoting 'unethical and unjustifiable' as you always do but cannot put facts to why it is, just that the Labour government saw it as such, they knew they could get the inner city vote. They also approved mass immigration and spending us into deficit.
You have no experience and no argument and believe that because the majority thought it was right then it must be right.
Keep following the Sheeple.
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