Sheep?

[BenBhoy 4,706]

2 hours ago, SheepChaser said:

Rings are pretty cruel in my opinion mate, and hugely impractical for any outdoor system of scale .

Agree to disagree there mate. Gas iron not lawful over here without anesthetic (quite right imo). Rubber band at few hours old, they over it pretty quickly and back to binkying around field. 

Sure you don't do anything to your exlana? 

[SheepChaser 8,082]

1 minute ago, BenBhoy said:

Agree to disagree there mate. Gas iron not lawful over here without anesthetic (quite right imo). Rubber band at few hours old, they over it pretty quickly and back to binkying around field. 

Sure you don't do anything to your exlana? 

Genuine question but have you ever used a gas iron ?

rubber ring - end of the tail slowly dies, discomfort last for a while with the ring on, and they run about for a bit with a rotting dead bit of flesh hanging off them. Also leaves rings all over. 
 

gas iron - about one second of pain, tail is removed, wound is cauterised, job done. Lambs straight on their feet and run off to eat.

Also practically speaking - running mobs of 250-400 twins and 300-1000 singles, catching them up and ringing as you go is nigh on impossible, due to  lambing rate, plus causes a lot of miss mothering.

This way they are all 1-4 weeks old, no Miss mothering caused, and lambs are ovi vac, tagged, treated for fly, given white wormer for nemo, all at same time, while ewes are also treated for fly. The stud flock at also dna tagged and weighed and ewes tags read abs all lambs linked to dams and rams. The team can process 1000 plus lambs a day. 
 

My exlana don’t get tailed. This is just contract work for other folk. Done about 3000 lambs this week, got another 5000 next week and that’s us pretty much done for the tailing unless any new customers pop up. The dogs are goosed! 
 

Back up for next season  

 

[SheepChaser 8,082]

The old girls will be glad of the help  

[BenBhoy 4,706]

11 minutes ago, SheepChaser said:

Genuine question but have you ever used a gas iron ?

rubber ring - end of the tail slowly dies, discomfort last for a while with the ring on, and they run about for a bit with a rotting dead bit of flesh hanging off them. Also leaves rings all over. 
 

gas iron - about one second of pain, tail is removed, wound is cauterised, job done. Lambs straight on their feet and run off to eat.

Also practically speaking - running mobs of 250-400 twins and 300-1000 singles, catching them up and ringing as you go is nigh on impossible, due to  lambing rate, plus causes a lot of miss mothering.

This way they are all 1-4 weeks old, no Miss mothering caused, and lambs are ovi vac, tagged, treated for fly, given white wormer for nemo, all at same time, while ewes are also treated for fly. The stud flock at also dna tagged and weighed and ewes tags read abs all lambs linked to dams and rams. The team can process 1000 plus lambs a day. 
 

My exlana don’t get tailed. This is just contract work for other folk. Done about 3000 lambs this week, got another 5000 next week and that’s us pretty much done for the tailing unless any new customers pop up. The dogs are goosed! 
 

Back up for next season  

 

No, no I haven't. But like I said, over here each lamb woud need an anaesthetic. That alone makes it far more impractical than ringing, not to mention the extra cost.

I know of a study by British vet's who reckon (don't ask me how) the initial pain of ringing is similar to the shock pain of the gas. 

And obviously due to climate, all those things you're mentioning (fly treatment, worming etc) we aren't doing those by 1-4 weeks, so we'd still need to gather them all up again anyway. 

Agreed when I used to lamb outside we left tails & balls on. Now I'm lambing indoors in January. Penned up, mothered, with belly full of milk, ring on & back to sleep it off. Job done. 

[SheepChaser 8,082]

There is a system from oz called ‘numb nuts’ which is currently being trialled in the uk. Local anaesthetic at a fractional cost which would allow for late ringing of balls and chopping tails. Bit of a game changer really. 
 

Where are you in the uk? I’d think a lot of April / may outdoor lambing flocks in the south would be facing blow fly issues and nemotadaris hatch by the time the lambs hit 4 weeks ? 
 

100% agree on ringing at early stage with indoor stuff, but indoor lambing just doesn’t stack up for us in any way shape or form. And like I said that stud flock (the performance recorded dna tagged group ) I’ve just been at, would have scanned 180% ish, and lambed in 250 groups had lost 7.5% from scanning to now with once a day checking. Pretty much all twins, a maternal breed, and heaviest lambs hitting 25/26 kilo now. 

[WILF 44,325]

This is no dig at anyone but it’s f***ing savage how we treat animals in the food production “system” .......i ring my lambs and that’s as savage as I want to get.

I helped the bloke round the corner de-horn calf’s and I just found that brutal......no reason to treat animals that way imho lads, they shouldn’t be a commodity treated like shit. 

[WILF 44,325]

1 minute ago, W. Katchum said:

It’s a sad state of affairs but when profits are so tight an costs keep soaring who can blame farms for being run like businesses

Oh I understand mate, as I said, it wasn’t a dig because I know it’s all about profitable management.

Fact is farms can’t make a living letting animals live a natural life, they are a commodity instead of a sentient creature......that’s fundamentally wrong to me.

 

[SheepChaser 8,082]

So...... just to reply to some of your points, and please dont think i take it as a dig, but someones as to offer the other side.

First - I totally agree to your sentiments with regard to small scale self sufficiency and sympathetic food production for yourself / community around you.

However, there are a lot of folk, and most can't or wont do that. Someone has to feed them. This food either gets imported or gets grown here, if its going to be grown here, it needs to be done os efficiently and profitably for those doing so. And preferably those producers not be seen as evil lol.  You make a point that its impossible for farms to be ethical, let animals live 'naturally' (you shear your sheep? That level of wool isn't natural . . . .. ), however id argue this isn't true, especially now. Lots of folk are running large scale, commercial ventures, making profit and doing so whilst running very high welfare and environmentally sustainable systems. The one above, with the tailing, would be just that. Large operators are also inspected to the hilt. 

With regard to things like de horning calves, the fact isn't with the guy taking the horns off, but the daft folk who keep and use horned breeds, when polled ones are available. Horns are dangerous to man and beast. We dock terriers and we dew claw lurchers . . . . .

Ive been around a lot of sheep. Ive seen plenty of maggots in rung lambs tails, and plenty hanging on half severed for ages. The docking iron is clean, relatively painless (the squeal more at being tagged) and serves as a management option which overs greater welfare issues. Ultimately all mutilation of animals will be banned, so its up to folk to breed around the problem. I dont tail dock my sheep at all, i also dont keep horned cattle. 

One last thing - profit is actually a great driver for welfare. The subsidy system has meant folk have been able to carry on doing inefficient stuff grand dad did, using crap breeds and out dated methods. If you have to make profit from your stock, you can't run the badly. With regard to the tail thing, the first thing thats looked at, is how it effects growth rates. Sick or unhappy or in pain lambs, dont grow well, they take a check. Same with debudding calves, it costs money, it checks their growth. Why would you accept that? You'd just use a polled breed or apply horn paste when very young. And not piss about with older animals cutting horns off.

[WILF 44,325]

21 minutes ago, SheepChaser said:

So...... just to reply to some of your points, and please dont think i take it as a dig, but someones as to offer the other side.

First - I totally agree to your sentiments with regard to small scale self sufficiency and sympathetic food production for yourself / community around you.

However, there are a lot of folk, and most can't or wont do that. Someone has to feed them. This food either gets imported or gets grown here, if its going to be grown here, it needs to be done os efficiently and profitably for those doing so. And preferably those producers not be seen as evil lol.  You make a point that its impossible for farms to be ethical, let animals live 'naturally' (you shear your sheep? That level of wool isn't natural . . . .. ), however id argue this isn't true, especially now. Lots of folk are running large scale, commercial ventures, making profit and doing so whilst running very high welfare and environmentally sustainable systems. The one above, with the tailing, would be just that. Large operators are also inspected to the hilt. 

With regard to things like de horning calves, the fact isn't with the guy taking the horns off, but the daft folk who keep and use horned breeds, when polled ones are available. Horns are dangerous to man and beast. We dock terriers and we dew claw lurchers . . . . .

Ive been around a lot of sheep. Ive seen plenty of maggots in rung lambs tails, and plenty hanging on half severed for ages. The docking iron is clean, relatively painless (the squeal more at being tagged) and serves as a management option which overs greater welfare issues. Ultimately all mutilation of animals will be banned, so its up to folk to breed around the problem. I dont tail dock my sheep at all, i also dont keep horned cattle. 

One last thing - profit is actually a great driver for welfare. The subsidy system has meant folk have been able to carry on doing inefficient stuff grand dad did, using crap breeds and out dated methods. If you have to make profit from your stock, you can't run the badly. With regard to the tail thing, the first thing thats looked at, is how it effects growth rates. Sick or unhappy or in pain lambs, dont grow well, they take a check. Same with debudding calves, it costs money, it checks their growth. Why would you accept that? You'd just use a polled breed or apply horn paste when very young. And not piss about with older animals cutting horns off.

Excellent reply mate and thank you for not taking my comment the wrong way

[OldPhil 5,361]

12 hours ago, SheepChaser said:

So...... just to reply to some of your points, and please dont think i take it as a dig, but someones as to offer the other side.

First - I totally agree to your sentiments with regard to small scale self sufficiency and sympathetic food production for yourself / community around you.

However, there are a lot of folk, and most can't or wont do that. Someone has to feed them. This food either gets imported or gets grown here, if its going to be grown here, it needs to be done os efficiently and profitably for those doing so. And preferably those producers not be seen as evil lol.  You make a point that its impossible for farms to be ethical, let animals live 'naturally' (you shear your sheep? That level of wool isn't natural . . . .. ), however id argue this isn't true, especially now. Lots of folk are running large scale, commercial ventures, making profit and doing so whilst running very high welfare and environmentally sustainable systems. The one above, with the tailing, would be just that. Large operators are also inspected to the hilt. 

With regard to things like de horning calves, the fact isn't with the guy taking the horns off, but the daft folk who keep and use horned breeds, when polled ones are available. Horns are dangerous to man and beast. We dock terriers and we dew claw lurchers . . . . .

Ive been around a lot of sheep. Ive seen plenty of maggots in rung lambs tails, and plenty hanging on half severed for ages. The docking iron is clean, relatively painless (the squeal more at being tagged) and serves as a management option which overs greater welfare issues. Ultimately all mutilation of animals will be banned, so its up to folk to breed around the problem. I dont tail dock my sheep at all, i also dont keep horned cattle. 

One last thing - profit is actually a great driver for welfare. The subsidy system has meant folk have been able to carry on doing inefficient stuff grand dad did, using crap breeds and out dated methods. If you have to make profit from your stock, you can't run the badly. With regard to the tail thing, the first thing thats looked at, is how it effects growth rates. Sick or unhappy or in pain lambs, dont grow well, they take a check. Same with debudding calves, it costs money, it checks their growth. Why would you accept that? You'd just use a polled breed or apply horn paste when very young. And not piss about with older animals cutting horns off.

Superb, erudite post, penned with a passion born of genuine experience in the field....just as it should be...

[SheepChaser 8,082]

Thanks Phil!

Another day, another dollar! 

 

 

[SheepChaser 8,082]

[SheepChaser 8,082]

[SheepChaser 8,082]

[BenBhoy 4,706]

1 hour ago, SheepChaser said:

Thanks Phil!

Another day, another dollar! 

 

 

Do the exlana lambs need clik?